Match Day Thread Middlesbrough Vs Norwich
- Thread starter zogean_king
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Are people really defending Sainz's actions here?
Irrespective of whether he made contact or not he ensured the ref. had to make a decision, even with VAR I doubt it'd be overturned, it certainly wasn't a clear or obvious error.
He's paid tens of thousands and should know how to control himself on the pitch. You can be aggressive and stay within the law, however he's also shown to be petulant at times, and last night reckless, so don't think we can have any complaints
Irrespective of whether he made contact or not he ensured the ref. had to make a decision, even with VAR I doubt it'd be overturned, it certainly wasn't a clear or obvious error.
He's paid tens of thousands and should know how to control himself on the pitch. You can be aggressive and stay within the law, however he's also shown to be petulant at times, and last night reckless, so don't think we can have any complaints
Well after that brilliant run by King Zog unfortunately we came to a crashing halt in spectacular self destruction.
On to @SuffolkCanary for Rotherham who have only one 3 , one of those being us
On to @SuffolkCanary for Rotherham who have only one 3 , one of those being us
Well I brought us close to the playoffs hopefully suffolk can make one of those spots ours!
The Canaries have confirmed that they have lodged an appeal to overturn Borja Sainz's red card during the defeat at Middlesbrough on Wednesday.
A statement on the official club website says: "Sainz was shown a straight red card for violent conduct by referee Robert Madley, following an incident with Middlesbrough captain Jonny Howson in the 30th minute of the game.
"After reviewing video footage of the incident and speaking with Borja, the club believes there is sufficient evidence to overturn the decision."
As things stand, Sainz would serve a suspension which means he would miss the next four games, starting with the visit of Rotherham to Carrow Road on Saturday.
A statement on the official club website says: "Sainz was shown a straight red card for violent conduct by referee Robert Madley, following an incident with Middlesbrough captain Jonny Howson in the 30th minute of the game.
"After reviewing video footage of the incident and speaking with Borja, the club believes there is sufficient evidence to overturn the decision."
As things stand, Sainz would serve a suspension which means he would miss the next four games, starting with the visit of Rotherham to Carrow Road on Saturday.
That takes some imagination Robbie, what I think it shows is clear, Sainz got to the ball first as the ball is in front of them, Howson is late and contacts the back of Sainz leg, which caused him to spin around in pain.
If you wanted to suggest another possibility without having seen the incident, I would suggest it is more likely to show Howson sliding through the back of Sainz
Absolutely I’m defending him. What exactly did he do that was aggressive or reckless?
He has challenged for a ball, in which he has been fouled IMO, spin round in pain as a result of the challenge which has caught him high on the leg, only to find Howson stood over him. Where are his legs meant to disappear to at that instant?
It’s not a kick out, it’s neither violent or aggressive, I wouldn’t even call it petulant.
Originally I thought Howson got to the ball. Watching the replay I think Sainz got to it and Howson went into the back of Borja's knee with his studs. It looks like Howson was afraid of getting his own red card and play-acted his way out of trouble.
We should win this appeal, and Howson given a retroactive red card.
We should win this appeal, and Howson given a retroactive red card.
Even if we don't have Sainz, I expect us to win three of those games. The Leicester game I expect we would lose, anyway.
Having now seen the incident on the highlights, I agree that Sainz did get to the ball first and his doing so largely determined the trajectory of the ball thereafter. Which illustrates the point which prompted my post, that you really can't draw any solid conclusion about such an incident from such a photo. Nor, for that matter, from a single short video clip which fails to capture the entirety of the incident. The red card, though, doesn't hinge on who fouled who first; it hinges on whether Sainz's actions, leading to his studs ending up in contact with the side of Howson's left thigh, is or isn't violent conduct as per the laws of the game:
VIOLENT CONDUCT
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
Several people, including Connor Southwell on his post-match Connor's Verdict video, point to what appears to be a deliberate movement on Sainz's part to make contact. I think that will be the crux of the matter as far as the appeal panel is concerned.
Should Sainz's suspension be upheld, Finley Welch is one possible replacement, having made his debut last night. Here's an excerpt from an analysis of the 19 year old's playing skills:
"Welch has an array of positive attributes, which give him a unique profile of player compared to any other of his team-mates. One of those qualities is his pulsating running ability, which helps the team progress up the field efficiently. The more pleasing element of that is the manner in which he exploits gaps of space between opposition base set-ups. Welch often shows a tendency to drift infield, bypassing opposition midfielders, which escalates into him driving into the opponent’s penalty box.
One determining factor in a player’s progression from the U21s to the first team is the manner in which they can adjust the intensity of the game. Welch is fantastic at lifting the tempo of a game, effective at performing a swift combination move or executing a darting run. This makes him an exciting proposition, as it suggests that Welch has multiple gears. An important element of his game that requires improvement is his end product. Despite having a prolific 2022/23 season, he hasn’t hit the heights during this campaign, with only four goal contributions. The demoralising aspect of this statistic is that Welch could have easily doubled or tripled his output this season, from some glorious opportunities. He has created goal-scoring chances due to his individual brilliance, but has been unable to convert."
From that he could potentially be another Rowe or another Placheta. Time will tell, but the next 3 games could provide an opportunity to find out.
"Welch has an array of positive attributes, which give him a unique profile of player compared to any other of his team-mates. One of those qualities is his pulsating running ability, which helps the team progress up the field efficiently. The more pleasing element of that is the manner in which he exploits gaps of space between opposition base set-ups. Welch often shows a tendency to drift infield, bypassing opposition midfielders, which escalates into him driving into the opponent’s penalty box.
One determining factor in a player’s progression from the U21s to the first team is the manner in which they can adjust the intensity of the game. Welch is fantastic at lifting the tempo of a game, effective at performing a swift combination move or executing a darting run. This makes him an exciting proposition, as it suggests that Welch has multiple gears. An important element of his game that requires improvement is his end product. Despite having a prolific 2022/23 season, he hasn’t hit the heights during this campaign, with only four goal contributions. The demoralising aspect of this statistic is that Welch could have easily doubled or tripled his output this season, from some glorious opportunities. He has created goal-scoring chances due to his individual brilliance, but has been unable to convert."
From that he could potentially be another Rowe or another Placheta. Time will tell, but the next 3 games could provide an opportunity to find out.
I agree with your first paragraph.
In regards to violent conduct, I would highlight two section of the definition which you posted. Firstly, “excessive force” - there was nothing excessive about his movement while on the floor. The boot on Howsons leg could be described as “brushing”, if that’s a red these days then you can send a player off for putting a hand on the oppositions shoulder and nobody would be left in the field by half time.
The third paragraph related to a “ strike to the head or face” which doesn’t cover this incident.
As we know, though, there are the laws of the game, and there's the interpretation of them (usually involving "guidance" issued by IFAB, but also by national associations). The reason Connor Southwell et.al. were concerned about the movement of Sainz's legs immediately preceding contact with Howson's thigh, is that it could be interpreted as both deliberate and retaliatory. This is what distinguishes it from just putting a hand on an opponent's shoulder.
If the appeal fails, reasons will be given, and we'll see if that concern was correct.
Red card overturned...!! And rightly so IMO.
Pity it cost us on Wednesday night.
https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/sainz-red-card-overturned
Pity it cost us on Wednesday night.
https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/sainz-red-card-overturned
In which case - shouldn't How's on be punished for simulation?