I think Messi playing for Argentina is a perfect example of how football is a team game. Take even a great player like Messi out of a team, and a system, he fits into, and you don't have anything like the same player. It is the same thing when we look at players we should buy at Arsenal. You cant just look at a player and say, "He is obviously a far better player than...(current player)", because that other player may not be good at the sysetem we play, the position we need, or fit in our team. It doesn't make them a bad player, it just means that they are not a good fit. We also can't go changing all the other players to accommodate one superstar. This is what Mark Hughes failed to do at City. He just bought every player he could, without figuring out which players would fit togther. As far as the refereeing goes, I just think refs do favour the "best" players. I don't care what the sport is, the best players get the calls. In US sports Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretsky got all the breaks from the referees. I think that the same was true in the Barcelona games. The ref was so worried about us kicking them, or time wasting, he went too far the other way. I think in every ref's mind is the thought, "I want the best team to win". Sometimes, they should be thinking, "I want to be fair" instead.
Worse is being a fan boy. If you really dont think barca are the biggest cheats in the history of football then you need you eyes checking.
Messi isn't the best player of all time yet. I stress yet - because he will be at some point in the future the way he's going. His stats piss all over anyone's, and he's still to reach his peak He reminds me of a combination of Maradona and Pele - He's taking football to the next level. Although football wise I'm an old romantic and have always thought Pele was the greatest, It's starting to dawn on me that Messi will become the best player of all time. All this bollocks about he hasn't won the world cup and International stuff I don't buy into. We're talking about the greatest player not the greatest team. As far as I know the only player to pretty much win the world cup by himself was Maradona - and that involved some sly tactical cheating. Yes his team mates at Barca are vital to his success - but you take Messi out of that team and they're no where near as good, which has been proved many times. I'm yet to watch the documentary (got it on SKY+) but watching him last night was incredible - absolute genius. Like I say he's taken football to a completely new level.
I think Arsenal fans feel robbed in that Champions league home and away. We do have a few people on this forum that can't argue a point without going to extremes and becoming insulting. Nobody is saying Barcelona aren't a good team. What we are saying is that quite often, and in those games in particular, Barcelona were being handed every call by the referees and they knew it and milked it. I don't exactly blame them, sadly I think most professionals nowadays would do what they did. Arsenal don't do it enough perhaps. Our young players perhaps don't know all the tricks of the trade yet. But we came very close to beating "The greatest team ever" over two legs, even without the referee's help. And it hurts, because if we had won that game, we might not have lost Nasri, or Fabregas, last summer.
I love Messi. He is a wonderful player. I particularly like the fact that he is 5' 6" tall. So many coaches these days are simply picking the biggest, strongest, most developed kids for their team. He shows beyond all doubt that size and strength are not a requirement for most positions. Having a brain, footskills and most of all an astute knowledge of the game, are far more important. With so many sports becoming a battle between "physical freaks", football is one of the few sports where technique, teamwork and knowledge will take you further than brute force.
1) Makes no diff. If he cannot do it in the biggest tournament in World football then he can't be on the level of those that did. GoonerC I take your George Best point but he didn't get to the World Cup and flop so we can only think about what may have been. 2) If Messi was as good as is claimed it wouldn't matter that the manager is a chump, he would still perform for Argentina .. but he hasn't .. yet. Anyone can look good when they have the best players around them. Gary Neville achieved more for his club than the players listed .. but what does that prove ? Is he better than Messi ?
Also you have to remember that for barca messi basically has 100% possesion for his team and his genius midfielders work him into perfect situations vs tired opponenets almost constantly. And then there is the fact that int he spainish league levante's whole footballing budget (for the year - i.e. all coaches, all staff, all players) wouldnt pay for ronaldo for 6 months. So messi plays vs teams with league 1 budgets in 75% of the games he plays.
A couple of points about Messi: 1) Those of you saying because he plays in the Spanish league he is against weaker oppposition and so he isn't as good as he looks - that's a load of rubbish. Firstly there are some great sides in the spanish league. Secondly Messi has done it on the top stage consistently as well scoring in the CL regularly, ripping Arsenal a new one two years ago and scoring 5 the other night spring to mind but there are plenty of other top level goals he has scored. I think questioning his club record is silly. 228 goals at 24? 2) I don't understand the international argument. People say if you haven't done it at a World Cup you can't be a great, but these people expect one player to single handedly win there team the trophy? If so, then remember he still has a few world cups left in him and at some point Argentina will have a good enough team around him for him to shine. Also did you all watch him at the World Cup? Yes he wasn't scoring but he was involved in the build up to almost every single Argentina World Cup goal. He actualy played very well and was unlucky hitting the woodwork on a couple of occasions as well. He has plenty of time to perform with his country and i expect he will. This doesn't stop him being mentioned alongside Zidane, Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo. If Messi keeps up his current level of performance for the next 5 years let alone 10 years he will have some amazing statistics - think of the amount of goals he can still score before retirement. And don't forget he get's alot of assists as well. 228 Goals, 94 Assists in 311 appearances is amazing already and he could still double or triple that!
fair points and well written. Buts is obviously not true that there are a lot of top teams in the spainish league. barca and real are killing that league with the fact they take more in tv money than the rest of the league combined.
Afcftw - if he goes to the Copa America and world Cup but doesn't perform - nobody says he has to win anything - he can't be classed as the best - not when others HAVE gone to international tournaments and performed. This why the likes of Henry isn't anywhere near the best. Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldo and Pele are on another level because they did it consistently everywhere they went, Messi has done nothing for Argentina.
And an example of why international goals are a joke stat. And in fact stats are a joke in general. Henry got loads of international goals but he was always dire for france.
I think you are right. I'm not sure you can pad out goals against minnows so much in South America (there are less minnows), however Messi usually faces a long trip before playing internationals, and that is going to impact his performances. International success is one thing missing from his resume, but I don't think necessarily it reflects badly on him. I'm always harping on about trying to pick fault at individuals in football. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge, and you can't look at one negative statistic in isolation, without looking at the context. Messi is the sort of player, that will draw a lot of defensive attention and international level managers are going to be astute enough to take him out of the game tactically. It reflects worse on the rest of the Argentinian team (than on Messi) that they can't win, when the other side is spending so much effort keeping Messi quiet.
On that documentary it says that he could of chosen to play for Spain, and no doubt with Messi in the Spanish team they would have won the WC with far more ease (also could you guys imagine that... WOW). Now, if he did win it with Spain would that all of a sudden make him a legend? Honestly, doing well in international tournaments shouldn't be a prerequisite to be seen as a legend. If Messi played for Norway there would be no chance of him achieving international glory, and that isn't his fault, it's the lack of class in his team. Yes Argentina are better than Norway, and they have a menacing looking attack, but the rest of the team aren't very good, so even if he doesn't win much internationally, I have no doubt he will be revered as a legend.
I saw the documentary today and I totally agree with Peter Reid - until Messi does something at international level, he can't be on the level of Maradona and Pele. Messi has a less than 1 goal in 3 game ratio for Argentina, some are claiming Argentina aren't a good team, are you ****ting me ??? Look at their players at the last World Cup: Heinze, Higuain, Messi, Tevez, Angel Di Maria, Walter Samuel, Mascherano, Aguero, Milito, Pastore, Demichelis .... that team were expected to produce the goods. Pele - 77 goals in 92 games ! Maradona - with 34 international goals has a better than 1 goal in 3 game ratio - and he is a midfielder, he didn't play in as advanced a position as Messi often does. Messi still has some way to go yet to catch Pele and Maradona as best player ever, he isn't better than Brazilian Ronaldo in my opinion who is only 2nd to Pele and Maradona.
Messi will be the greatest ever, but he's not there yet. Until the argies win a world cup, he'll have to play second fiddle to another Argie, Diego Maradona. The man carried a poor argentine side through a world cup, scored the greatest international goal ever, etc. He's still the greatest to ever play, Pele was blessed to play in hugely talented brazillian sides, maradona had nobodies.
