McGeouch

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Hefty fullback said:
I'm admittedly biased. We don't have too many players like that over here, but we've got plenty of big ones. In the general case, for ability to overcome a size disadvantage, I believe the skill differential has to be significant, something along the lines of one standard deviation. Not sure if McGeouch is that good.

For the Sunderland case, in just about every match, we had to contend with a size disadvantage at most positions. I was so confident going into Wembley, after our performances in the semi's, but that confidence quickly waned after seeing the size and pace advantage enjoyed by Charlton.

I just don't want to feel a sense of foreboding everytime there is a free kick, next season.
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Its not wholly true, but there is a tendency for larger players to be less agile, less mobile, slower. There is also a correlation between size and a drop off in dribbling ability partially because of their higher centre of gravity. Also though, players like Maradona (ankle) and Garrincha (knee) are understood to have been good at dribbling because they could over-rotate the joints I've bracketed. Physics would suggest that the joints of larger players are less likely to over-rotate because they have to support a greater weight. I would also contend that there is a direct correlation between size and the ability to strike a dead ball (see my earlier posts about 'target man' type centre forwards rarely taking penalties). I know it's a different position but look at our results when Charlie Wyke (the archetypal 3rd division centre forward) and the slimmer, slighter Josh Maja have been first choice. We do need some big lumps, to carry Bill Shankly's piano, but size wouldn't be the first thing I looked at.
 
The Norton Cat said:
Its not wholly true, but there is a tendency for larger players to be less agile, less mobile, slower. There is also a correlation between size and a drop off in dribbling ability partially because of their higher centre of gravity. Also though, players like Maradona (ankle) and Garrincha (knee) are understood to have been good at dribbling because they could over-rotate the joints I've bracketed. Physics would suggest that the joints of larger players are less likely to over-rotate because they have to support a greater weight. I would also contend that there is a direct correlation between size and the ability to strike a dead ball (see my earlier posts about 'target man' type centre forwards rarely taking penalties). I know it's a different position but look at our results when Charlie Wyke (the archetypal 3rd division centre forward) and the slimmer, slighter Josh Maja have been first choice. We do need some big lumps, to carry Bill Shankly's piano, but size wouldn't be the first thing I looked at.
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Your getting abit too technical now i think mate and over thinking. Lower league football isnt rocket science. Im not saying we need a team of giants, but most teams use big strong physical players at this level. In order to compete with our opponents in a 50/50 challenge without our players ending up on their ar$e, and to challenge at set-pieces we need players of a similar build otherwise we'll be completely bullied. Having players like Mcgeouch, Catts Honeyman and Leadbitter in the same midfield does us no favours at all. We all saw what happened to Watmore against Wycombe, where we were practically kicked off the pitch.

I wouldnt use the name Maradona in the same thread as Mcgeouch.
 
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Teesdarlomakem said:
Your getting abit too technical now i think mate and over thinking. Lower league football isnt rocket science. Im not saying we need a team of giants, but most teams use big strong physical players at this level. In order to compete with our opponents in a 50/50 challenge without our players ending up on their ar$e, and to challenge at set-pieces we need players of a similar build otherwise we'll be completely bullied. Having players like Mcgeouch, Catts Honeyman and Leadbitter in the same midfield does us no favours at all. We all saw what happened to Watmore against Wycombe, where we were practically kicked off the pitch.

I wouldnt use the name Maradona in the same thread as Mcgeouch.
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Well, yeah, I'm deliberately over egging it I suppose but that was more to say that size doesn't necessarily mean success than that McGeouch is any good. We've not had a big team all season though and if you go back to the early part of the season we were winning every week with a bunch of midgets. We've been playing with a big lad up front for a while now and he's been useless.
 
The Norton Cat said:
Well, yeah, I'm deliberately over egging it I suppose but that was more to say that size doesn't necessarily mean success than that McGeouch is any good. We've not had a big team all season though and if you go back to the early part of the season we were winning every week with a bunch of midgets. We've been playing with a big lad up front for a while now and he's been useless.
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Unfortunately for us Wyke couldnt hit a barn door, where as if you look at the list of top scorers in league 1 from last season they are all big lads.
Having Mcgeouch early in the season wasnt a problem i dont think but we've now added Leadbitter to the squad Robsons returned and Mumba is also another year older. We have far too many small players in our engine room. If you look at all the teams we've struggled against this season ie. Wycombe, Fleetwood and Coventry, theyve all been a team of big strong players.

I actually rate Mcgeough, but we need to even things out in our squad physically so hed be one of 2 or 3 Central midfielders id like to see gone.
Im hoping Ethan Robson will play a big part for us next season.
 
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Teesdarlomakem said:
Unfortunately for us Wyke couldnt hit a barn door, where as if you look at the list of top scorers in league 1 from last season they are all big lads.
Having Mcgeouch early in the season wasnt a problem i dont think but we've now added Leadbitter to the squad Robsons returned and Mumba is also another year older. We have far too many small players in our engine room. If you look at all the teams we've struggled against this season ie. Wycombe, Fleetwood and Coventry, theyve all been a team of big strong players.

I actually rate Mcgeough, but we need to even things out in our squad physically so hed be one of 2 or 3 Central midfielders id like to see gone.
Im hoping Ethan Robson will play a big part for us next season.
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Oh yeah, they are. But Maja would have outscored them all if he'd stayed. Like I've said before, I reckon the way we've had to change our game to suit Wyke is a big reason why we've not been so good since January.
I still think McGeouch can do a job for us. We need some hard running in midfield and some strength but I'm not sure height makes much difference in midfield. We need height combined with nous at centre back though.
 
The Norton Cat said:
Oh yeah, they are. But Maja would have outscored them all if he'd stayed. Like I've said before, I reckon the way we've had to change our game to suit Wyke is a big reason why we've not been so good since January.
I still think McGeouch can do a job for us. We need some hard running in midfield and some strength but I'm not sure height makes much difference in midfield. We need height combined with nous at centre back though.
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Maja was built very powerfully so i think he was able to get away with the physical side of the league. He was no dwarf at 5 foot 11 either.
Ill agree to disagree with Mcgeough. His small stature and side ways passing, not to mention injury record offers us nothing in this league, so for that reason id like to see him cut from the wage bill and replaced with a bigger, stronger box to box midfielder.
 
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Teesdarlomakem said:
Unfortunately for us Wyke couldnt hit a barn door, where as if you look at the list of top scorers in league 1 from last season they are all big lads.
Having Mcgeouch early in the season wasnt a problem i dont think but we've now added Leadbitter to the squad Robsons returned and Mumba is also another year older. We have far too many small players in our engine room. If you look at all the teams we've struggled against this season ie. Wycombe, Fleetwood and Coventry, theyve all been a team of big strong players.

I actually rate Mcgeough, but we need to even things out in our squad physically so hed be one of 2 or 3 Central midfielders id like to see gone.
Im hoping Ethan Robson will play a big part for us next season.
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Wyke can score goals his record proves it. He just isn't scoring for us.

We do need a couple of big lads, but we also need strikers that can play to our style. I don't want to see us become a bash and lump it side.
 
dansafcman said:
Wyke can score goals his record proves it. He just isn't scoring for us.

We do need a couple of big lads, but we also need strikers that can play to our style. I don't want to see us become a bash and lump it side.
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The most goals Wyke has ever scored in a season is 15 goals and he's never played above League 1. I dont want to play hoof ball either, but if we want to get promoted next season we need a better target man than Wyke.
Grigg doesnt look like he can play alone on his own, so a new striker is a must.
 
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Teesdarlomakem said:
The most goals Wyke has ever scored in a season is 15 goals and he's never played above League 1. I dont want to play hoof ball either, but if we want to get promoted next season we need a better target man than Wyke.
Grigg doesnt look like he can play alone on his own, so a new striker is a must.
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Yes he's a proven L1 forward, and I thought we were in league 1? You want us to pay out for a proven championship striker, if we can find one whose willing to play in league 1?

Target men don't score 20 goals a season. 12 to 15 is probably about right.
 
dansafcman said:
Yes he's a proven L1 forward, and I thought we were in league 1? You want us to pay out for a proven championship striker, if we can find one whose willing to play in league 1?

Target men don't score 20 goals a season. 12 to 15 is probably about right.
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You clearly havent done your research because at least 5 of the leagues top 10 goalscorers from last season were target men , each scoring 15+ goals each.

You clearly havent done your research on Wyke either because hes only played in League 1 for 2 seasons. 1 with us (Shyte) and 1 with Bradford, so hes hardly proven in this league is he?.
Other than his season with Bradford, he has never scored more than 14 goals a season playing in league 2.

As you were...........
 
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Teesdarlomakem said:
Lets not forget ONien is naturally a central midfield aswell and hopefully we'll bring another proper RB next season so he can play back where he should be.
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He's that good there Jack Ross (our hero on here) didn't play him there ! Whats that all about ?
When we were sh@te end of last season perhaps him and Mcgouch would have been worth a try , it was obvious Catts and Grant weren't the answer.
 
Teesdarlomakem said:
You clearly havent done your research because at least 5 of the leagues top 10 goalscorers from last season were target men , each scoring 15+ goals each.

You clearly havent done your research on Wyke either because hes only played in League 1 for 2 seasons. 1 with us (Shyte) and 1 with Bradford, so hes hardly proven in this league is he?.
Other than his season with Bradford, he has never scored more than 14 goals a season playing in league 2.

As you were...........
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Plus if you're talking about Marquis for example he's a target man but he's more than that besides. Decent on the ball and makes good runs with a bit of pace. One in two for Donny, we'd have gone up if we'd signed him instead of Wyke or Grigg.
 
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Teesdarlomakem said:
You clearly havent done your research because at least 5 of the leagues top 10 goalscorers from last season were target men , each scoring 15+ goals each.

You clearly havent done your research on Wyke either because hes only played in League 1 for 2 seasons. 1 with us (Shyte) and 1 with Bradford, so hes hardly proven in this league is he?.
Other than his season with Bradford, he has never scored more than 14 goals a season playing in league 2.

As you were...........
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Grab a drink calm down!
Didn't intend to come across as having a go, sorry if I did

I just didn't your point about him not being proven above League 1. If you'd said not proven in L1 I'd have probably checked.

Anyway my point I wanted to make though was that he doesn't fit into our style of play, which is why he scored less goals per game than at previous clubs (including at Bradford)
 
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Nacho said:
Plus if you're talking about Marquis for example he's a target man but he's more than that besides. Decent on the ball and makes good runs with a bit of pace. One in two for Donny, we'd have gone up if we'd signed him instead of Wyke or Grigg.
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Yeah, so he isn't just a traditional target man.
 
dansafcman said:
Grab a drink calm down!
Didn't intend to come across as having a go, sorry if I did

I just didn't your point about him not being proven above League 1. If you'd said not proven in L1 I'd have probably checked.

Anyway my point I wanted to make though was that he doesn't fit into our style of play, which is why he scored less goals per game than at previous clubs (including at Bradford)
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He's only scored more than 10 3 times in 8 seasons as a pro. Goalscoring isn't his game but I don't think he's natural fit in a Jack Ross side (based on how he set St Mirren up)
 
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