Mboyo

[J.B.Septum]

**** off septum you ****

That's a coherent argument.

**** off yourself.

 

[originallambrettaman]

I don't really - I just know that 2 wrongs don't make a right and that state sponsored murder is just that - you just create more victims of his crime. And yes, I suggest you read Pierrepoint's memoirs on the experience and value of execution. It is vile, as is any rape, murder or violent crime. Why do you have to choose who to have sympathy for? I would suggest that it is a horrendous ordeal for all those affected and wouldn't want anyone to have to live through it - victim, victim's family or a parent having to come to terms with their child committing such an atrocity.

I repeat I have no sympathy for the rapist at all and I would like you to show me where I stated I had. I do and will however believe to the death that a society with no opportunity of reform or principle of redemption (which has to be conditional) is a worse fate for everyone than the system we currently have after 500 years or so of cultural development.

I don't like the idea of living with a 16th century penal code, do you?

I've only got O Level maths, big even I know two rights make a wrong.

Dafthead.

 

[Fez]

It's amazing how things change.

Not long ago we were struggling for our very existence, now it seems we employ experts on the rehabilitation of foreign sex offenders.

Do we? What do you know that we don.t? I thought we were discussing the possibility of employing him.

My reason for wanting the thread closed is that frankly it sickens me to read people offering sympathy to a child rapist.
I doubt there's a 16 year old on this planet who doesn't know that gang raping a little girl is as vile a crime as you can get.
16 year olds have a choice in their actions like anyone else and the choice this piece of **** made is one he deserves to be judged by.

I agree that he was wrong and knew that. I don't offer sympathy, only understanding that sometimes folk can change for the better; that is, of course, if we are prepared to give them that opportunity. Life, unlike some on here, is less than perfect.

Go for what? Are you disputing that he's a 26 year old convicted child rapist who served 3 years of an eight year sentence? If you can forgive you go for it.

What were the troubled times you describe?

Use Google, it does not take too much effort to read, but a little more to understand the horror.

I base my judgement of the likes of him on my own moral code.
Just because someone serves time for a crime doesn't mean we're obliged to forgive them for it. He did what he did and he will have to live with the consequences.

Yes, you are right, he will!

 

[Craigo]

I agree, and I don't believe I have said I do forgive that sort of crime - If you want to live in a society that feels the same way then I'm sure you'll find somewhere in the middle-east with the same values as you.

For me, however, that would be worse that living in a society where attempts are made to rehabilitate all but the very, very worst kind of psychopath.

You don't know what my values are.
The point is that a decent human being couldn't even contemplate the crime he committed, therefore in my book he isn't a decent human being.
Serving a prison sentence doesn't mean he's a reformed character. For all you know he might have spent every day of it and every day since gloating about his crime. So why exactly should I change my opinion of him?

 

[Erik]

I've only got O Level maths, big even I know two rights make a wrong

Dafthead

I can see why you didn't get O-Level English

 

[Fez]

You don't know what my values are.
The point is that a decent human being couldn't even contemplate the crime he committed, therefore in my book he isn't a decent human being.
Serving a prison sentence doesn't mean he's a reformed character. For all you know he might have spent every day of it and every day since gloating about his crime. So why exactly should I change my opinion of him?

You may be right and you might not be. But would you employ him to score goals and keep us in the top flight? I believe that is the issue of this football board.

 

[originallambrettaman]

I can see why you didn't get O-Level English

I did(you're allowed the odd typo).

I got O Levels in Maths, English and Technical Drawing.

So, if you want a mathematically correct technical drawing in English, I'm your man.

Though based on my geography result, I'd probably lose the drawing.

 

[J.B.Septum]

You don't know what my values are.
The point is that a decent human being couldn't even contemplate the crime he committed, therefore in my book he isn't a decent human being.
Serving a prison sentence doesn't mean he's a reformed character. For all you know he might have spent every day of it and every day since gloating about his crime. So why exactly should I change my opinion of him?

I'm not saying he is a decent human being - whether he is or not is not going to be gleaned from a few lines on wikipedia detailing his crime and punishment. What I am saying is that anyone convicted of something they did when they were 16 is not necessarily the same character 10 years later after serving their punishment and rehabilitation. If there is a possibility of reform, then whilst there is that possibility it is far less menacing to have a society which encourages that, than one which offers punishment as vile as the initial act itself and creates only more victims. That's apart from the fact that there is no such thing as a "perfect conviction" even with modern technology and you are inevitably going to hang innocent people whilst the real perpetrator walks free and claims yet another victim.

I could similarly turn your argument around and ask how do you know he doesn't regret that crime every day and does everything he can to make amends? Neither of us knows, so why should I change my viewpoint on crime and punishment in developed societies - and why shouldn't you change your opinion of him personally? The only person who really knows is him, and the proof of the pudding as they say will be whether or not he commits any similar offence in future, something which no-one except he really knows is a possibility or not.

 

[Craigo]

You may be right and you might not be. But would you employ him to score goals and keep us in the top flight? I believe that is the issue of this football board.

No. We should have enough pride in our club to turn away someone who would only leave a stain on it, even if it means sacrificing a few goals and dare I say it even survival.

 

[Erik]

I did(you're allowed the odd typo).

I got O Levels in Maths, English and Technical Drawing.

So, if you want a mathematically correct technical drawing in English, I'm your man.

Though based on my geography result, I'd probably lose the drawing

Reminds me of Del Boy and Rodney:

"I got GCEs in Maths and Art"

"Yeah, and the only time they came in handy was when I asked you to count them tins of paint"

 

[Craigo]

I'm not saying he is a decent human being - whether he is or not is not going to be gleaned from a few lines on wikipedia detailing his crime and punishment. What I am saying is that anyone convicted of something they did when they were 16 is not necessarily the same character 10 years later after serving their punishment and rehabilitation. If there is a possibility of reform, then whilst there is that possibility it is far less menacing to have a society which encourages that, than one which offers punishment as vile as the initial act itself and creates only more victims. That's apart from the fact that there is no such thing as a "perfect conviction" even with modern technology and you are inevitably going to hang innocent people whilst the real perpetrator walks free and claims yet another victim.

I haven't suggested capital punishment, but your argument doesn't explain why I or anyone else should change their opinion of someone who has proved capable of reaching the lowest low.

 

[J.B.Septum]

No - I don't want the club I love to be associated with his crime - that said, I do believe he should have every opportunity to lead a useful and productive liife once his punishment has been served, just not at my football club.

 

[andy payton's mullet]

Go for what? Are you disputing that he's a 26 year old convicted child rapist who served 3 years of an eight year sentence?

I've tried not to get involved in this debate but sweeping statements like this do concern me.

I have not seen anything to say mbolo was convicted of rape. All we have seen is that he was sentenced for his involvement. Nobody knows the circumstances of what happened. There are a multitude of scenarios. He could have been the ring leader in a violent offence; he could have been a willing participant; he could have been an unwilling participant in an abhorrent act; he could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time; he could have been wrongly convicted; the victim could have been a willing participant but due to her legal age is considered unable to give consent.

I really am split on this. Rape is an abhorrent crime, rape of a child is even worse and gang rape is a frightening thought.

But on the other hand, we don't know what his involvement is supposed to be. And he has left the gang culture and seemingly is looking to try and get his life back on the right track. I think that does deserve some credit as many involved.in that situation would not.do that

 

[J.B.Septum]

I haven't suggested capital punishment, but your argument doesn't explain why I or anyone else should change their opinion of someone who has proved capable of reaching the lowest low.

I'm not sure I have argued you should - I would certainly be weary if I met him down the pub. The crime and punishment rant is directed at other posters, sorry, I thought you had written Cheshireben's last post arguing that the state killing a child based only on "reasonable doubt" and political whim as is inevitably the case in every known system of C.P. - after of course they had been left for months or years knowing it was going to happen is somehow okay. I do feel it is significant he was a child himself when he was involved in this, though I don't feel that society should just forget his past either, and don't believe people will simply overlook something like that, as this thread attests.

 

[J.B.Septum]

I've tried not to get involved in this debate but sweeping statements like this do concern me.

I have not seen anything to say mbolo was convicted of rape. All we have seen is that he was sentenced for his involvement. Nobody knows the circumstances of what happened. There are a multitude of scenarios. He could have been the ring leader in a violent offence; he could have been a willing participant; he could have been an unwilling participant in an abhorrent act; he could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time; he could have been wrongly convicted; the victim could have been a willing participant but due to her legal age is considered unable to give consent.

I really am split on this. Rape is an abhorrent crime, rape of a child is even worse and gang rape is a frightening thought.

But on the other hand, we don't know what his involvement is supposed to be. And he has left the gang culture and seemingly is looking to try and get his life back on the right track. I think that does deserve some credit as many involved.in that situation would not.do that

Thanks for putting it better than I could.

 

[J.B.Septum]

No. We should have enough pride in our club to turn away someone who would only leave a stain on it, even if it means sacrificing a few goals and dare I say it even survival.

I agree with this. I've repeatedly said I wouldn't want to sign him. It isn't just about staying up but doing it in a way which won't damage the image of the club in the longer term. There's no knowing whether he would score the goals to keep us up, and having someone on the books with that kind of offence may well deter others from signing anyway.

 

[Craigo]

I'm not sure I have argued you should - I would certainly be weary if I met him down the pub. The crime and punishment rant is directed at other posters, sorry, I thought you had written Cheshireben's last post arguing that the state killing a child based only on "reasonable doubt" and political whim as is inevitably the case in every known system of C.P. - after of course they had been left for months or years knowing it was going to happen is somehow okay. I do feel it is significant he was a child himself when he was involved in this.

What it comes down to is some people are willing to offer forgiveness in the belief that a person can mend their character, while others feel extreme actions like Mboyo has demonstrated expose a character that is fundamentally and irreparably flawed.

 

[andy payton's mullet]

I've read a few reports they range from:-

"He took part in the gang rape of a 14 year old girl"

"He participated in the gang rape of a 14 year old girl."

"He was part of a gang that raped a 14 year old girl"

"He served three years of an eight year sentence for the gang rape of an underage girl."

"Norwich have failed in a bid to sign Belgium striker – and convicted rapist – Ilombe Mboyo"

The gang were also convicted of other violent crimes.

So for me it's hardly sweeping.

I genuinely believe that the death penalty should be brought back & can muster no sympathy to anybody involved in such abhorrent crimes. Whether they've served their sentence or not they are & always will be rapists, in this case child rapists.

The justice system, that many on here hide behind, also states that a 14 a girl cannot be a willing participant. They can't have it both ways.

I'd suggest it was the victim who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

No reports that I've read suggest he was falsely convicted or that he claims to be innocent.

It has been proved & he has accepted that he is capable of raping a child, for me there is no redemption from this.

Do you have a link to the evidence that was heard at trial? All I have seen in my 2 days of research is blogs and stories using the sound bites you used.

As I have said, I (along with everyone else on this forum) don't know what happened on that day.

 

[J.B.Septum]

What it comes down to is some people are willing to offer forgiveness in the belief that a person can mend their character, while others feel extreme actions like Mboyo has demonstrated expose a character that is fundamentally and irreparably flawed.

It is possible that is the case, but without knowing the precise circumstances and his precise actions it is difficult to know exactly what his culpability at the time was. Was he a ringleader? Was he just weak? under the influence? was it violent or consensual but for the legal age of the girl? At the very least he had no sense, and of course there are questions which will remain over his character for many years to come. People can and do change however, and between 16 and 26 you do a lot of growing up, maturing and learning about life's realities. You may be right, but not necessarily. I may be wrong, but not necessarily. From the information available there isn't enough to make an informed judgement - but I don't believe that somebody at 16 and under various detrimental influences is emotionally or morally the same as at 26 or even 36 years old necessarily. Many people have character flaws also - it is just really a question of whether these are of a criminal, violent or dishonest nature and whether they persist or not, which is impossible to know based on the scant information available. I would expect someone who was a proven ringleader with an aggravated role to serve more than 3 years though.

The bloke who was convicted with Derek Bentley was 16 and fired the bullet which killed the policeman Bentley Hung for. Because of his age he went to borstal instead and later lived a crime-free and productive life, despite being involved in armed robbery and murder at the same age as Mboyo was at the time of his offence. Is this evidence of a reformed character or not? In a legal sense it probably is. Once a murdering thief always a murdering thief? Is the sexual element to Mboyo's crime significant to his ability to reform and therefore different ? Is the fact it was an offence committed by an adolescent against another adolescent significant in your view or not - I would think most adolescent males are attracted to adolescent females within a couple of years age range. Most mature men are not interested in girls of that age - is it a fair representation that sensationalist headlines make a point of stating his current age and his victim's age at the time of the offence?

To be fair I wouldn't want anyone with any rape conviction of any kind associated with the club, so in that sense it doesn't make much difference. I don't however feel he is necessarily a threat to 14 year old girls 10 years on though.

 

[andy payton's mullet]

Could you not argue the same for every other sub-human that has been convicted of a heinous crime?

Yes. And every person who is wrongly accused or wrongly convicted. There is no such thing as a perfect criminal legal system without CCTV in every home.and.public place so we could see what happened every minute of every day