Lucas

[InBiscanWeTrust]

He played some of his best football last season next to Modric. Alonso was the only real protection and was also the one who turned defence into attack. Song does a similar role and very well at West Ham. I wouldn't knock them.

Bit different being that player for Madrid where in 90% of the games you dominate possession and can pretty much leave the defending to the defenders.

In the Prem where teams actually have a go Alonso wouldn't be good enough from a defensive point of view or physical (not got the pace and stamina to play that role for 90 minutes).

Stick Alonso next to a Mascherano as a midfield 2 with a Gerrard ahead... and then a Torres in front of that with Henderson type player on the right... say someone like Kuyt... hold on a sec

 

[luvgonzo]

So basically back to the diamond with Lucas at the base

My point is back to the Rafa formation Lucas and Can in the DM position with CAN able to look forward.

 

[Treble]

Bit different being that player for Madrid where in 90% of the games you dominate possession and can pretty much leave the defending to the defenders.

In the Prem where teams actually have a go Alonso wouldn't be good enough from a defensive point of view or physical (not got the pace and stamina to play that role for 90 minutes).

Stick Alonso next to a Mascherano as a midfield 2 with a Gerrard ahead... and then a Torres in front of that with Henderson type player on the right... say someone like Kuyt... hold on a sec

Lol I see what you did there...

I think you're doing what everyone does when writing off Spanish teams. How do you explain them in the Champions League where all of Europe's elite have a go?
I correct what I said earlier, Alonso has been doing it for Real for more than a season. When he isn't then it's Khadeira who's a different type of defensive midfielder.

LFC45 mentioned Alonso but there are other holding midfielders who also offer creativity and plenty of those have done it in the prem. There's reason to say Lucas is good defensively, much as you could say the same of others of the same style such as Mikel, Gattuso, Khadeira, Deschamps, but if you want someone with more to their game then you go for an Alonso, Song, Busquets, Viera, Banega. You pays your money and takes your choice as my gran pappy used to say.

 

[InBiscanWeTrust]

Lol I see what you did there...

I think you're doing what everyone does when writing off Spanish teams. How do you explain them in the Champions League where all of Europe's elite have a go?
I correct what I said earlier, Alonso has been doing it for Real for more than a season. When he isn't then it's Khadeira who's a different type of defensive midfielder.

LFC45 mentioned Alonso but there are other holding midfielders who also offer creativity and plenty of those have done it in the prem. There's reason to say Lucas is good defensively, much as you could say the same of others of the same style such as Mikel, Gattuso, Khadeira, Deschamps, but if you want someone with more to their game then you go for an Alonso, Song, Busquets, Viera, Banega. You pays your money and takes your choice as my gran pappy used to say.

Don't get me wrong, Alonso is a brilliant player and one of my favourites and still think he'd walk into our team. However he isn't a DM in the type we need. DM's in this league need to be able to tackle, look at Gerrard being moved there. Last year it was fine from an attacking point of view but he was found out as was our team defensively.

What we need, is someone like Mascherano who can cover ground and tackle before passing the ball off. Not someone like Alonso who won't really win the ball in a tackle.

 

[LFC_45]

what treble said. i want someone who isnt one dimensional and has more to their game than just being a defensive mid. i want someone like yaya, busquets etc. dont get me wrong lucas at times can be a very important part of the group with great vision and he is a great technician. but if we want to make that next step, he needs to go

 

[BBFs Unpopular View]

Don't get me wrong, Alonso is a brilliant player and one of my favourites and still think he'd walk into our team. However he isn't a DM in the type we need. DM's in this league need to be able to tackle, look at Gerrard being moved there. Last year it was fine from an attacking point of view but he was found out as was our team defensively.

What we need, is someone like Mascherano who can cover ground and tackle before passing the ball off. Not someone like Alonso who won't really win the ball in a tackle.

Alonso was never even remotely DM material. He's one half of the sword and shield as it were, he's the sword and Lucas the shield, lucas breaks it up and Alonso gets attacks going.

Alonso cannot tackle and even jockey too well, he's not that athletic and never was. If you could mash Alonso and Mascerano together you'd have one very good playmaking DM

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Lucas is getting a lot of praise because he has added balance to the team. But this is because he is the only DM in the squad.

Any DM is better than no DM as proven when Lucas was out of the team and we played Gerrard there.

Lucas would not get into many top teams in the world. He's not in the same league as Matic or Mascherano so why the hell are we settling for these players?? This is the problem with Liverpool - some players have some decent matches and we assume they're top class and worthy of a starting place. This is how the likes of Skrtel, Enrique, Lucas, Henderson (to some degree) have all stayed this long.

Check Lucas's stats over his career - he puts in a lot of challenges but he doesn't win that many - I think it's around 40% which is sh*t for a DM. Physically, he can't chase after the opposition or cover the ground quick enough.

And this isn't about slagging Lucas off - it's about upgrading our players and trying to get better In all aspects. As we've seen with Skrtel, once you remove other scapegoats, his deficiencies are now more visible. Once Stevie leaves and Can moves into midfield, everyone will see Lucas's deficiencies a lot more.

As we've seen with Matic at Chelsea, a quality DM can improve any side. Mourinho is known for setting up defensively sound sides but Matic has come in and improved them even further.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

And Alonso is not a DM. He's a deep lying playmaker who had Mascherano beside him at LFC, or had energetic midfielders ahead of him at Real.

It's the same with Pirlo at Juventus - the deepest midfielder is not always the DM but this can only work if he has two fantastic CM's in front of him. Unfortunately we don't have Vidal or Pogba to babysit Gerrard in that respect.

 

[LFC_45]

Lucas is getting a lot of praise because he has added balance to the team. But this is because he is the only DM in the squad.

Any DM is better than no DM as proven when Lucas was out of the team and we played Gerrard there.

Lucas would not get into many top teams in the world. He's not in the same league as Matic or Mascherano so why the hell are we settling for these players?? This is the problem with Liverpool - some players have some decent matches and we assume they're top class and worthy of a starting place. This is how the likes of Skrtel, Enrique, Lucas, Henderson (to some degree) have all stayed this long.

Check Lucas's stats over his career - he puts in a lot of challenges but he doesn't win that many - I think it's around 40% which is sh*t for a DM. Physically, he can't chase after the opposition or cover the ground quick enough.

And this isn't about slagging Lucas off - it's about upgrading our players and trying to get better In all aspects. As we've seen with Skrtel, once you remove other scapegoats, his deficiencies are now more visible. Once Stevie leaves and Can moves into midfield, everyone will see Lucas's deficiencies a lot more.

As we've seen with Matic at Chelsea, a quality DM can improve any side. Mourinho is known for setting up defensively sound sides but Matic has come in and improved them even further.

exactly this. the same fans on here claiming lucas makes our team better are the ones that complain that we need new players because our current crop are (mostly) ****. we could do way better than a lazy brazilian

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

exactly this. the same fans on here claiming lucas makes our team better are the ones that complain that we need new players because our current crop are (mostly) ****. we could do way better than a lazy brazilian

I think our current squad is a very good foundation to build on. We have the squad depth Rafa always wanted. We just need to add a few stars.

 

[LFC_45]

I think our current squad is a very good foundation to build on. We have the squad depth Rafa always wanted. We just need to add a few stars.

as do i. our playmakers like sterling, coutinho, lallana are doing well, theyre great technicians and have amazing vision. i havent seen too much of can but i hear hes good but we need a DM that can do more than lucas can imo. idk whats going on with lovren but i hope he gets some confidence and plays like he did last season. mig can be hit and miss. very happy with moreno and manquillo (sometimes). all great technicians with fantastic vision

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

I think our current squad is a very good foundation to build on. We have the squad depth Rafa always wanted. We just need to add a few stars.

I don't think we need any stars TBH - I think buying good replacements for Migs, Skrtel, Lucas and Gerrard will massively improve the team (defensively). Since we brought Sakho and now Can into the team, we are not making as many defensive errors as we were.

But I do agree that about the squad - I think it has massive potential and will be a big force in the next few years if they can continue to develop and play regular football.

 

[Treble]

And Alonso is not a DM. He's a deep lying playmaker who had Mascherano beside him at LFC, or had energetic midfielders ahead of him at Real.

It's the same with Pirlo at Juventus - the deepest midfielder is not always the DM but this can only work if he has two fantastic CM's in front of him. Unfortunately we don't have Vidal or Pogba to babysit Gerrard in that respect.

I disagree with you here Jimmy. The minute someone mentions the term DM everyone thinks along the line of a Makelele type but thats not always the case. Yes that is one type. But you can also think of it as a holding midfielder which offers more. You're right that Alonso is a playmaker also but he does protect the back 4. His tackling is being badly underrated on here and I suggest ppl simply havent watched him enough at Real. If as you say it was simply about having 2 energetic CMs in front of him, Real would be winning while conceding. You'd have score lines like those of Liverpool last season. But they broke records with clean sheets and their defence. Ancelotti and Mourinho before him focus first on their defence and they dont do that on a simple playmaker behind energetic CMs. Alonso is a great reader of the game. He closes down, intercepts and yes, tackles. The fact he had Masch next to him at Liverpool doesnt mean that's the only way he could be effective, he still can do the holding role.

And even if we forget about Alonso there are plenty of other holding midfielders we can agree on that offer creativity as well as defence.

 

[LFC_45]

hendo would do alright in a defensive/attacking center of the park role imo. hes got a good physique for it, hes a great technician and his aggression would see him do well

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

I disagree with you here Jimmy. The minute someone mentions the term DM everyone thinks along the line of a Makelele type but thats not always the case. Yes that is one type. But you can also see it as a holding midfielder. You're right that Alonso is a playmaker also but he does protect the back 4. His tackling is being badly underrated on here and I suggest ppl simply havent watched him enough at Real. If as you say it was simply about having 2 energetic CMs in front of him, Real would be winning while conceding. You'd have score lines like those of Liverpool last. But they broke records with clean sheets and their defence. Ancelotti and Mourinho before him focus first on their defence and they dont do that on a simple playmaker behind energetic CMs. Alonso is a great reader of the game. He closes down, intercepts and yes, tackles. The fact he had Masch next to him at Liverpool doesnt mean that's the only way he could be effective, he still can do the holding role.

And even if we forget about Alonso there are plenty of other holding midfielders we can agree on that offer creativity as well as defence.

I agree with you that Alonso is good defensively (a lot better than what he is credited for).

But if you're to pigeon hole him into a category - he's a deep lying playmaker i.e his role is to dictate tempo and control the game. That is his main skillset.

DM's can be categorised in 2 different ways - shielder (someone who protects the space in front of the defence to prevent danger) and the destroyer (self explanatory). I don't feel Alonso fits any of these categories as he is a holding mid or DLP - but that's not to say he's not good defensively.

But this is the beauty of the modern game - it's far more versatile and positions can be filled by players who have different roles. This is why I love players like Can who have the game intelligence to adapt his game to suit the needs of the role he plays. If Gerrard was coached properly during his youth, he could have been an excellent holding mid/DLP.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

hendo would do alright in a defensive/attacking center of the park role imo. hes got a good physique for it, hes a great technician and his aggression would see him do well

Hendo is a jack of all trades player - he's a good box to box player but I fear what we're seeing from his is best. I think he's quite limited technically.

If we are to get back to a high level, Hendo is the perfect utility player every squad needs - I see him becoming effective like Milner at City.

 

[InBiscanWeTrust]

Lucas is getting a lot of praise because he has added balance to the team. But this is because he is the only DM in the squad.

Any DM is better than no DM as proven when Lucas was out of the team and we played Gerrard there.

Lucas would not get into many top teams in the world. He's not in the same league as Matic or Mascherano so why the hell are we settling for these players?? This is the problem with Liverpool - some players have some decent matches and we assume they're top class and worthy of a starting place. This is how the likes of Skrtel, Enrique, Lucas, Henderson (to some degree) have all stayed this long.

Check Lucas's stats over his career - he puts in a lot of challenges but he doesn't win that many - I think it's around 40% which is sh*t for a DM. Physically, he can't chase after the opposition or cover the ground quick enough.

And this isn't about slagging Lucas off - it's about upgrading our players and trying to get better In all aspects. As we've seen with Skrtel, once you remove other scapegoats, his deficiencies are now more visible. Once Stevie leaves and Can moves into midfield, everyone will see Lucas's deficiencies a lot more.

As we've seen with Matic at Chelsea, a quality DM can improve any side. Mourinho is known for setting up defensively sound sides but Matic has come in and improved them even further.

No no one claiming he's brilliant but he's the best we have. I think everyone agrees we need a new one and an upgrade as soon as possible, but until we replace him he has to play as he allows others to perform better.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

No no one claiming he's brilliant but he's the best we have. I think everyone agrees we need a new one and an upgrade as soon as possible, but until we replace him he has to play as he allows others to perform better.

I just don't feel the need to replace him is urgent. Striker and keeper need fixing first. Then a CB. Then we can look at the midfield. What we have works when we put the right personnel in there - no need to rush to flog the one who's brought in the most improvement to the side when there are far weaker areas of the team.

 

[Hash.]

LFC45 ... you sir are either a wum or Brendan Rodgers which is basically the same thing. Great technician this great technician that bullshit they are not technicians

 

[luvgonzo]

Alonso is a playmaker also but he does protect the back 4. His tackling is being badly underrated on here

I agree and his tackling was good when he was with us.

I disagree on the whole settling for poor players Jimmy put out there, you rarely have a team of 11 superstars and functional players who can do a job week after week are the core of any team and imo Lucas comes into that category. Play him in the Mascherano role and put a more talented player like Can next to him and they'll both do a great job.