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Jimmy Squarefoot said:
That’s a good question. It’s Because I’m more interested in the ability on the ball and on the pitch. Intangibles such as Being a captain is hard to quantify and it’s hard to see how it translates to our performances
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So would you rather have pogba or henderson in midfield out of interest.
 
Its obvious what Henderson's traits are.

Drive,
Self sacrifice,
Passing ability,
holds shape better than others
Can tackle
Can press well
more physically able for the prem games.
eager to drive the team on
reliable

If i'm looking for someone to shoot, its naby or ox over henderson all day. If i am looking for a cross, again i don't like henderson hitting the corner flag most of the time so elliott. If I am looking for positionalsense or a battle i am not going to turn to naby.

If i am looking for someone to make intercaptions in the press or dribble its naby keita.

If i now want high intensity its no longer henderson for 90mins, its elliott.

I don't see naby running out wide to let trent be the hero in the middle. i can see elliott doing it but what you NEED is someone willing to cover and chase back and see the runs of trent. thats henderson
 
oh and for me this is not a henderson OR for RCM conversation.

Its a thiago OR conversation.

If I want thiago positivity and passing then i want to ensure the balance with that is right and that means running. I don't see a midfield of naby and thiago as all that attractve to me i nthe prem. In europe thats another matter.

If thiago is fit I would play him. He passes in front of players FFS. thats what i fundamentally want not backwards play.

Fabinho is a must end of as without him theres no balance and so it then becomes who with those two and form me elliott in an end to end game. henderson in a battle like burnely and naby more as a sub to come on cos i just don't know whats going to turn up.
 
InBiscanWeTrust said:
More consistent, has played in numerous big games so has the knowledge skill to deal with those occasions. Drives the team and is a very good talker and organising and encouraging team mates. Is looked up to within the squad and offers a lot to the team.

It also depends what game you’re talking about. If your saying it’s the champ league final then that’s my 3.

If it’s a home game v Norwich then I’d prob go differently though as each game needs diff strengths.

Im not sure why you can’t user words experience and leadership though? That’s like saying why would you pick Fabinho but not allowed to use the words tackling and positioning. Or why pick Salah but not allowed to use goal scoring.
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Good points but I would argue about consistency. Actually, he has been consistent this year - consistently poor IMO.

As we know, having just one of ability or good work ethic is not enough. But we do have to look at Hendo’s role this season - he’s not providing defensive cover, he’s not attacking well, and his legs look like they have gone (which is why I wanted to focus more on the tangibles). Which begs the question - what is he actually bringing to this team. Have we outgrown him now?

If we want him because he has experience, we have plenty of players in the team who also have that but are combining it with on the ball quality.

This wasn’t intended to slag Hendo off By the way - it’s more to see how do we move on from him because he looks like he’s clearly regressing. The same applies to Bobby as well.
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
Its obvious what Henderson's traits are.

Drive,
Self sacrifice,
Passing ability,
holds shape better than others
Can tackle
Can press well
more physically able for the prem games.
eager to drive the team on
reliable

If i'm looking for someone to shoot, its naby or ox over henderson all day. If i am looking for a cross, again i don't like henderson hitting the corner flag most of the time so elliott. If I am looking for positionalsense or a battle i am not going to turn to naby.

If i am looking for someone to make intercaptions in the press or dribble its naby keita.

If i now want high intensity its no longer henderson for 90mins, its elliott.

I don't see naby running out wide to let trent be the hero in the middle. i can see elliott doing it but what you NEED is someone willing to cover and chase back and see the runs of trent. thats henderson
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You’re describing Hendo from a few years ago, not the Hendo we’re seeing now.

Drive - what drive? Is he progressing us up the pitch with dribbles and long passes? He might be.

Passing ability - there are 6 games this season where he got less than 60% pass completion. That’s awful for a midfielder

hold shapes better - that would be true if he wasn’t playing in this new role. He doesn’t have the legs to track back and cover the space on that RCM. He was outpaced by Waghorst.

pressing - ox, Naby, Elliott all have higher pressing numbers and efficiency.

Reliable - in terms of what? Being physically available for games? Yep probably. Reliable in terms of performance, I don’t agree

Hendo has always been a limited player. But he was able to mask it with his work rate and energy. Without the legs, he isn’t offering much.

We talk about a meritocracy but does he deserve to his spot in the team currently …
 
moreinjuredthanowen said:
oh and for me this is not a henderson OR for RCM conversation.

Its a thiago OR conversation.

If I want thiago positivity and passing then i want to ensure the balance with that is right and that means running. I don't see a midfield of naby and thiago as all that attractve to me i nthe prem. In europe thats another matter.

If thiago is fit I would play him. He passes in front of players FFS. thats what i fundamentally want not backwards play.

Fabinho is a must end of as without him theres no balance and so it then becomes who with those two and form me elliott in an end to end game. henderson in a battle like burnely and naby more as a sub to come on cos i just don't know whats going to turn up.
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thiago left. And Fabinho as DM. These are the only certainties for me.

You say Hendo for Burnley but we literally saw it at the weekend - we took more control once he came off and replaced. He lost the ball so many times and that relieves control and puts us under pressure.
 
To be clear, think we can all agree henderson isn’t the best player in the world, not even our team. But far too early to write him off after playing half a season, most of which is in a new role that he is having to adapt to and may not suit him perfectly. He’s still available every game, which is a lot more than can be said for Thiago Keita and ox, plus Elliott had a couple decent games at start of the year before breaking his ankle and was average against Leicester when came on. To say he’s not a nailed on starter based on a handball of appearances 4 months ago is a bit premature.
 
InBiscanWeTrust said:
To be clear, think we can all agree henderson isn’t the best player in the world, not even our team. But far too early to write him off after playing half a season, most of which is in a new role that he is having to adapt to and may not suit him perfectly. He’s still available every game, which is a lot more than can be said for Thiago Keita and ox, plus Elliott had a couple decent games at start of the year before breaking his ankle and was average against Leicester when came on. To say he’s not a nailed on starter based on a handball of appearances 4 months ago is a bit premature.
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Do you think Henderson has been good this season? Or even last season?
 
Jimmy Squarefoot said:
Based on this season, I would pick Pogba.

but thankfully, we have Elliot, ox and Naby as RCM options :)
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Fair enough and although I couldn’t disagree more that’s why we have different opinions on this. Because I think off the ball things like work rate, leadership, influence, consistent, being able to talk and organise are just as important as being able to smash one jn for 30 yards a couple of times a season. Pogba on the ball is obviously a better player henderson, not sure many will argue that, but doesn’t come close to his overall game when you take those non tangible abilities into it.
 
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InBiscanWeTrust said:
Fair enough and although I couldn’t disagree more that’s why we have different opinions on this. Because I think off the ball things like work rate, leadership, influence, consistent, being able to talk and organise are just as important as being able to smash one jn for 30 yards a couple of times a season. Pogba on the ball is obviously a better player henderson, not sure many will argue that, but doesn’t come close to his overall game when you take those non tangible abilities into it.
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don’t get me wrong - I wouldn’t even want pogba. I just feel that Henderson has been very poor this season, Arguably our worst midfielder.

in his prime, Hendo is a far better fit for us than pogba ever will be
 
Jimmy Squarefoot said:
Do you think Henderson has been good this season? Or even last season?
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Not judging last year. He had to play CB for a time, got injured, was in a team that was mixing its midfield around constantly and forwards werent playing well etc. I wouldn’t say Fabinho was great last year until we got a settled side again.

This year he’s been ok. Nothing more nothing less. He’s not been worse than Keita or ox. Jones has had a couple good games but is inconstant and doesn’t provide defensive abilities. Elliott played well before his break but remains to be seen how he does now he’s back.

So no, he’s Not been brilliant, but in comparison to the rivals for his position he’s been no worse.
 
Elliot looks a quality player but I find it concerning that we want him at RCM tbh. We'd have Salah, Elliott and Trent on that side, who the **** is defending?
 
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Zanjinho said:
Elliot looks a quality player but I find it concerning that we want him at RCM tbh. We'd have Salah, Elliott and Trent on that side, who the **** is defending?
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Elliotts pressing stats have been very good this season.

And Hendo hasn’t defended wel at all this season …
 
Jimmy Squarefoot said:
Elliotts pressing stats have been very good this season.

And Hendo hasn’t defended wel at all this season …
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Never mentioned either of those, just don't see a strong defensive game from that trio.

TBF, Robbo, Thiago and Mane is more offensive than defensive too but looks more balanced
 
Zanjinho said:
Never mentioned either of those, just don't see a strong defensive game from that trio.

TBF, Robbo, Thiago and Mane is more offensive than defensive too but looks more balanced
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The LCM is tasked with sitting alongside Fab.

The RCM plays higher.
 
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