Juventus want Ramirez

[rabbitspectrum]

Ramirez could become our best payer ever and I can't say that about anyone else in the team apart from the 17 year old Luke Shaw. Even Schneiderlin I feel lacks the truly dynamic match changing nature that Ramirez has already displayed, albeit it was against Aston Villa but he was incredible that day.

I wouldn't sell him for less than 25 mil, purely based on Ramirez being such a rare talent and us not needing to sell. When Ramirez was in form there were very few players of his age in that class, perhaps only a handful.

Actually I would say that Schneiderlin does have the potential to be our best player ever but less so than Ramirez.

 

[Lovelocum]

On paper he is not our best player. What a load of dogshite. Lambert is our best player on paper. Without Lambert we'd be no where. You live with your head in the ****ing clouds. Schneiderlin, Puncheon, Cork, Clyne, Lallana, Rodriguez, Shaw, Fonte, Yoshida have all contributed more this season than Ramirez as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a **** what he cost us. We spent too much for him. He's had barely any end product for any team he's played for in his career. He's not off colour, this is genuinely what he brings to the table wherever he plays. Mediocre means neither good nor bad by definition. I'm not saying he's ****. He's alright and not worth 12 million. He might become good in the future, we'll see. Right now he's mediocre. Rodriguez was a better buy I reckon. Like I care that Ramirez cost 12 million. I judge a player on what he does on the pitch. Liverpool spent 30 million on Carroll when he was a similar age to Ramirez. Carroll isn't even worth 5 million.

Yes they have contributed more but I still feel its too early to write him off or classify him as mediocre. The above mentioned players have contributed more but all except Yoshida are accustomed to the english game and most are long standing saints players. Yoshi has had a continual run of games this season, I seem to remember people thinking he was crap in his first few appearances. He needs game time and patience, especially with the change in manager. Rodriguez also needed a lengthy run of games before he started performing at his current level, he is accustomed to the english game albeit the NPC. He will also continue to improve.

Based on his few performances no he is not worth 12m but he has not reached his peak performance. True he may well never adapt to the english game, but thats always a risk with foreign signings. He showed what he can do playing villa at home- lets not write him off yet.

 

[Floating Bridge]

From what I've seen of him, at his best he can create something from nothing, shoot from distance and play some very nice balls.

Obviously we all agree that he hasn't been at his best, but he's been very close to scoring a few goals from outside the box and when he's on form he draws defenders to him, like basketball, he can shoot, pass or dribble. I can't see why we would let him go, I honestly think after the time he's had off, and definitely after a pre-season he'll really get into form. We don't have a player who can offer a threat from outside the box, Rickie never shoots there, Lallana has precision but not enough power and Puncheon is very erratic with his shooting.

I'm honestly excited to see him next season and think he might, if he stays injury free, be an absolute game changer.

 

[fatletiss]

On paper he is not our best player. What a load of dogshite. Lambert is our best player on paper. Without Lambert we'd be no where. You live with your head in the ****ing clouds. Schneiderlin, Puncheon, Cork, Clyne, Lallana, Rodriguez, Shaw, Fonte, Yoshida have all contributed more this season than Ramirez as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a **** what he cost us. We spent too much for him. He's had barely any end product for any team he's played for in his career. He's not off colour, this is genuinely what he brings to the table wherever he plays. Mediocre means neither good nor bad by definition. I'm not saying he's ****. He's alright and not worth 12 million. He might become good in the future, we'll see. Right now he's mediocre. Rodriguez was a better buy I reckon. Like I care that Ramirez cost 12 million. I judge a player on what he does on the pitch. Liverpool spent 30 million on Carroll when he was a similar age to Ramirez. Carroll isn't even worth 5 million.

You are just way to aggressive mate. Do you go to every game? I only ask becasue as stated before, he has been off form the last three he played , but before that he was either very good or really good. You need to watch a player sometines not the game to understand what they do for the team. I seriously question your footballing knowledge if you think he is mediocre.

You keep mentioning 12m as if that affects his ability or how he plays. He is a very, very good player who is getting stick becasue the last three games for him haven't been great (shall we mention the injury he carried in those games too?).

Try and have a debate now, without being abusive.

 

[fatletiss]

Yeah he was good against a poor Arsenal who never pressured him. If opposing players actually try to tackle him, he normally loses the ball. He just doesn't look on the same wavelength as the rest of the team. I know people say he's seeing things that the other players aren't, but if you're a good enough player you adapt to your teammates, not the other way around.

He's clearly got talent but he has disappointed me a bit if I'm honest.

Oh PTF. The way I've read that is you want him to adapt down? No way Jose. He could drop into a top, top team tomorrow and fit in. Not many of our others could. A good player does not adapt down..ever.

And I'm surprised that you have thrown the "poor Arsenal" line in PTF, you souind like an opposition fan now .... all those temas that had off days against us. For what it's worth, the thing about him that impressed me the most against Arsenal was how hard he worked to close them down. Makes me wonder if he knew MP was on his way. So, I don't buy the poor Arsenal line. He had a great game that day and is a very good player.

What about the Sunderland game. We were very poor that day. yet he stood out like a beacon as the only player in a red shirt who looked like either creating or scoring a goal. I took a mate to that game (United fan) and having giving me stick becasue it was such a poor game, he did pick out Ramirez as standing out above anyone that day. That is a sign of a good player; one who still performs when the rest are not.

He has just had too much stick because the last three games of his have been below his previous standard.

 

[Archers Road]

I only have one concern about Ramirez. I'm beginning to worry that he may be made of glass. Indeed, I remember someone on this forum drawing comparison with Marion Pahars, who's career was cut short by phantom "injuries". It's a good comparison because personally I've seen enough from Gaston to suggest he just may be capable of the sort of magic that made Marion so special. I'd love to see him given the chance to prove right those of us who think there may be a bit of genius about him. There's no Jaap Staam for him to nutmeg, but I see him tying John Terry in knots.

 

[Lovelocum]

Agree with you, even if not the way you say it!

Isn't the acid test which names you'd always put on the teamsheet? So let's see, Lambert is first for me. Schneiderlin, Cork and Shaw follow pretty quickly. A couple of goals and Rodriguez will become a shoo in. Puncheon, Lallana, Yoshida and Clyne have been consistently good this year. The other centre back slot is up for grabs. Fonte has been excellent after a shaky start, Hoover has surprised us all and there is still an expensive young Norwegian to accomodate so can't see Gaston getting in there. So at the moment I've got Ramirez in goal I think!

Where I disagree with the "sell him" brigade is that the lad is clearly talented. Remember his first game against Villa? He turned up at Goodison when Everton were playing some very good stuff. Since then injuries have plagued him and we haven't seen the best of him. He's good, and he has some good players to compete with. The price tag is crazy, of course. If we could get Rickie a forged birth certificate making him 24 he'd be worth zillions, but that's the way of it. I do not want to see talented players leave the club unless it is part of a bigger plan. I have been depressed too often by our inability to hold on to talent.

Surely Boruc is the man between the sticks?!

Right so your starting 11 is set..... what about subs? With MP's pressing game quality subs are vital. If davis is starting to tire at 60m or so who would you bring on for some attacking flair in the middle of the park? Chaplow?

 

[tomw24]

On paper he is not our best player. What a load of dogshite. Lambert is our best player on paper. Without Lambert we'd be no where. You live with your head in the ****ing clouds. Schneiderlin, Puncheon, Cork, Clyne, Lallana, Rodriguez, Shaw, Fonte, Yoshida have all contributed more this season than Ramirez as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a **** what he cost us. We spent too much for him. He's had barely any end product for any team he's played for in his career. He's not off colour, this is genuinely what he brings to the table wherever he plays. Mediocre means neither good nor bad by definition. I'm not saying he's ****. He's alright and not worth 12 million. He might become good in the future, we'll see. Right now he's mediocre. Rodriguez was a better buy I reckon. Like I care that Ramirez cost 12 million. I judge a player on what he does on the pitch. Liverpool spent 30 million on Carroll when he was a similar age to Ramirez. Carroll isn't even worth 5 million.

It doesn't mean that they are better than Ramirez. You really are an idiot. As for Lambert, although he is a top player and a fantastic goalscorer Ramirez has the vision and technical ability that Rickie can only dream of and if you can't see that then you really need to open your eyes. But Lambert is our most valuable player and the player who I do not want injured. I just don't know how you think Ramirez is mediocre. He is the best player we have had at this club in years and 12 mill for a player who has the potential to be one of the best players in Europe was a very good deal for us because when we sell him it will be for a lot more than 12 mill (unless we get relegated).

 

[Beddy]

I will have to join the group being called idiots. I don't buy the 'he sees things others don't' line. Like above, it's a team game and the team need to be on the same wavelength, not coach the rest to tie in with 1 player.

My evaluation so far is that yes he has talent, yes he shows he is a sublime technician however he loses the ball too much yet many here are trying to pass the blame onto 'lesser players' not reading where his pass is going. He needs to get with it and pass to people or where they will be. He seems to just see a gap to pass into and hopes that someone might be able to run at 100mph to get there.

Not up to speed because of injuries or fitness? It's possible but why say 'he will work out in a few years'. This is the PL. We can't carry expensive passengers on the belief they will come good in the long term. They need to be up and running quicker than that or we may as well put in one of the academy and then say 'he will come good in a year or 2'.

Take the money, buy someone else and see if they work

And I agree with the above poster. He is definitely not the best player in the team 'on paper'. He is the best player from media hype alone and nothing more than that. Virtually everyone else in the first 11 are ahead of him in terms of 'on paper' including some of the 'supporting' players.

Would love him to come good but I just don't see it. He was struggling with the pace under Adkins and Pottechino has them pressing much more than Adkins. Hope he proves me wrong but won't be that bothered if we get our money back.

Personally I would sell him if we break even on what we paid. Put Rickie in that role.

In truth you too are not correct........It is not wise always to pass to the player either as it puts him under immediate pressure. What Ramirez has brought to the team is his vision, his ability to spot opportunities. You mention playing it where the players will be presumably you mean into the gaps behind defenders etc. This would be correct that is his job to continue to probe the defences. However it is also his job to probe area's where the defenders may not expect it but for that to come to fruition other players have got to be on the same wavelength. That will come with time and experience of each others play. He has not had a long enough run of games yet to even start that kind of understanding......but it will come. That is why some of his passes go astray. Also you are not giving any of the opposing side any credit either. Defenders in this particular league are tough in the main and most can read a game pretty well. Put altogether it really is not surprising he has only shown glimpses of his talent.
As far as who is the best player on the pitch, there certainly is a few candidates for that title. No, I would not put Ramirez up there on that pedestal. That does not however suggest he is not worth the money we have spent on him or that he is not a bloody good player and worth the fee. His talent will come through as you will see but we do need to give him a run of games to reach a peak.

 

[saintlyhero]

What happened to patience?
Some people on this forum have no idea how a footballer develops.

You think Messi & Ronaldo scored hat tricks every week at 21.
You think Lambert at 21 was just as good as Lambert at 31? We have seen him get better since he was 28.

We have seen Schneiderlin & Lallana steadily improve in front our eyes over the last few years.

Bale was a superstar for us and we all knew he was special. Went to spurs and didn't even win a game for 20 odd matches. They had to wait and over the last couple of seasons he has proven himself as one of the hottest properties in world football.

Age & minutes on a pitch will help players develop and get that consistency.
Ramirez is by that very definition inconsistent.

Give him time, give him minutes on the pitch and those great performances will outweigh the poor ones

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Well said Beddy. When Ramirez makes those probing passes into space behind the defenders, of course there is only a small chance at the moment that someone will run onto them. But in time the other players, Rickie, Puncheo, Lallana, but most probably Rodriguez, will start anticipate what he is going to do and make a run at just the right moment. These things take time, but I bet they work on this kind of thing in training every day.

The other thing to remember is that Ramirez was bought with Cortese's long-term plan in mind. Within the next few years we will hopefully be challenging for Champions League places, and then playing the best teams in Europe. To achieve that we will need more players of Ramirez' calibre. We have some already: Schneiderlin, Lallana, the full-backs, possibly Rodriguez, and definitely Boruc, but we are nowhere near the finished article yet.

 

[Schad]

Well said Beddy. When Ramirez makes those probing passes into space behind the defenders, of course there is only a small chance at the moment that someone will run onto them. But in time the other players, Rickie, Puncheo, Lallana, but most probably Rodriguez, will start anticipate what he is going to do and make a run at just the right moment. These things take time, but I bet they work on this kind of thing in training every day.

Especially if we continue to play this frenetic, pressing style; we've been much more direct when winning the ball in the last couple games, and that is Gaston's bread-and-butter.

 

[Channon walked on H2O]

Oh PTF. The way I've read that is you want him to adapt down? No way Jose. He could drop into a top, top team tomorrow and fit in. Not many of our others could. A good player does not adapt down..ever.

And I'm surprised that you have thrown the "poor Arsenal" line in PTF, you souind like an opposition fan now .... all those temas that had off days against us. For what it's worth, the thing about him that impressed me the most against Arsenal was how hard he worked to close them down. Makes me wonder if he knew MP was on his way. So, I don't buy the poor Arsenal line. He had a great game that day and is a very good player.

What about the Sunderland game. We were very poor that day. yet he stood out like a beacon as the only player in a red shirt who looked like either creating or scoring a goal. I took a mate to that game (United fan) and having giving me stick becasue it was such a poor game, he did pick out Ramirez as standing out above anyone that day. That is a sign of a good player; one who still performs when the rest are not.

He has just had too much stick because the last three games of his have been below his previous standard.

Your United supporting friend (we all have our crosses to bear, mate) is a good judge. I'd forgotten the Sunderland game (Freud calls this repression I believe) but you are right. He was our stand-out player. I missed the Arsenal game, but bits I've seen on TV he was excellent.

As I've said, we should not be selling players like him.

 

[pass the football]

Oh PTF. The way I've read that is you want him to adapt down? No way Jose. He could drop into a top, top team tomorrow and fit in. Not many of our others could. A good player does not adapt down..ever.

And I'm surprised that you have thrown the "poor Arsenal" line in PTF, you souind like an opposition fan now .... all those temas that had off days against us. For what it's worth, the thing about him that impressed me the most against Arsenal was how hard he worked to close them down. Makes me wonder if he knew MP was on his way. So, I don't buy the poor Arsenal line. He had a great game that day and is a very good player.

What about the Sunderland game. We were very poor that day. yet he stood out like a beacon as the only player in a red shirt who looked like either creating or scoring a goal. I took a mate to that game (United fan) and having giving me stick becasue it was such a poor game, he did pick out Ramirez as standing out above anyone that day. That is a sign of a good player; one who still performs when the rest are not.

He has just had too much stick because the last three games of his have been below his previous standard.

No it's not a case of adapting 'down', but he must adapt all the same. Like if you went to live in another country, you'd have to adapt, but you wouldn't describe it as 'adapting down'. Equally you have to avoid putting him on a pedestal because of his price tag. He's not infallible, sometimes when his passes go astray its because they were poor passes, not because no-one read them.

Arsenal were poor against us. That's not to denigrate what we did, but as I said about the City game, being realistic if Arsenal had been on top of their game it wouldn't have mattered how well we played.

I didn't see the Sunderland game as I was stuck on a bus replacement service trying to get to the game! So perhaps I'm being unfair to Ramirez because I'm not taking that game into consideration. Since we lost though, his contribution wasn't tangible.

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, I've been saying this for much longer than the last three games; he's just not consistent enough at the moment. And be fair, I've said he's clearly got talent, I'm sure on the training ground he's at least as good as anyone else we have, but if you can't replicate it on the pitch, you're going to get criticised, no matter who you are.

 

[Lff]

It's his first season give the guy a break ffs.

Pardon me but I am giving him a break, to quote, "Mind you, he is young and probably hasn't had much exposure to the kind of pressure play that exists in The Premier League."

What else can I add. I am basically saying that he has potential but he isn't the finished article yet. Some people on here are making him out to be the new Pele. Really, he's played a couple of great games, a couple of average games and a couple of poor games. I think everyone wants him to be great that we are giving him a tag that he hasn't yet earned. And please note that I am saying, "yet". I am not dismissing him, I am not saying he's rubbish. I AM saying that he has potential but he has to show some consistency before we can say that he is a £20m player.
Go back a year and read some of the stuff people were writing about Lee and you will see a similar trend.

 

[Lff]

I like how there hasn't been a match for a few weeks so no player to slag off, so a few Saints fans have to get their criticizing out for the week.

I don't se people "slagging him off". I see people trying to make an assessment on what they have seen of him so far. No one here is saying he's rubbish.

 

[Lff]

Last bit on Ramirez do you guys know he has only played just over 14 games in all. No way can you judge a guy who has only played 14 games, which have been spread out due to injury and the fact this is his first season in the Prem.

Exactly! And that works both ways. But if you can't make statements about how crap he is (no-one is actually), then you equally can't make statements about how great he is.

 

[Channon walked on H2O]

Exactly! And that works both ways. But if you can't make statements about how crap he is (no-one is actually), then you equally can't make statements about how great he is.

To a degree, but I recall going to White Hart Lane with a Spurs mate and it was his first sighting of a young Channon. His assessment was that the lad would play for England a few times which was based on the first 45 minutes.

We could all see that Jermaine Wright was no better than an honest journeyman. We didn't need 14 games to make that assessment. Equally, Ramirez looks class. He needs games to settle and get a rhythm to his game, but we can surely judge whether someone is a class act or not.

The question mark against him is whether he is going to settle here and show his obvious potential. If he does, then he'll be a huge asset. I hope it's not going to remind me of when Lawrie signed Charlie George. He was a player of huge potential, which sadly we never saw. But you only needed to see Charlie tie his laces to see he was a class act. I hope he becomes more like Osgood - the record signing who took time to settle and then went on to become a Saints Cup Winner!

 

[Channonfodder]

Jury is out on this one. I hope the best of him has yet to come. Some of the stuff he produces is sublime but the lack of pitch time is concerning.

Oh, and wearing my Mod hat for a moment, can we keep it friendly-like? Just because you don't agree with an opinion doesn't mean it should be insulted.

 

[Beef]

I don't se people "slagging him off". I see people trying to make an assessment on what they have seen of him so far. No one here is saying he's rubbish.

RickieRickie is , all I was trying to say in my drunk state at 4am is give him a chance.