Off Topic Israel

[brb]

I've mentioned it before on this thread, gaslighting.

'It's your fault you're getting bombed and your children are dying, because you fight back'

So are you suggesting I'm gaslighting because I hate seeing kids get killed?

It's called having opinion, my opinion don't have to be the same as yours, it don't mean that I don't want the same end result.

 

[Spurlock]

You're just sitting at home watching it on your TV, getting angry. Shameful on you for just watching the show.

See what I did there mate, you aren't achieving anything better, like me, you just have to sit and watch.

I care about the kids, you care about other priorities. I want the fighting to stop, you want Hamas to continue until Israel stop.

In the meantime with your priority over mine, kids will continue to be killed. Shame on you.

It's all just words mate.

im not angry and yes I am sitting at home, it’s where I live but anyway I want the kids to stop being killed too. however, I also know enough to be able to write off the notion that being the bigger man is and would be enough for this to be achieved because as we can all see in front of our eyes the people who you are hoping to display their end of the bargain have a habit of being irrational I mean if they had an ounce of rationale in them they would as a people embrace the Palestinians for allowing them a home to call their own after they were getting slaughtered by the Nazis. Instead something inside them made them do a dirty and here we are today and they still doing a dirty by bullying a lesser people then blaming them people for being bullied because they had the audacity to stand up for themselves.

You can’t trust anyone who thinks like that I’m afraid, so once again the world needs to do the right thing

 

[brb]

im not angry and yes I am sitting at home, it’s where I live but anyway I want the kids to stop being killed too. however, I also know enough to be able to write off the notion that being the bigger man is and would be enough for this to be achieved because as we can all see in front of our eyes the people who you are hoping to display their end of the bargain have a habit of being irrational I mean if they had an ounce of rationale in them they would as a people embrace the Palestinians for allowing them a home to call their own after they were getting slaughtered by the Nazis. Instead something inside them made them do a dirty and here we are today and they still doing a dirty by bullying a lesser people then blaming them people for being bullied because they had the audacity to stand up for themselves.

You can’t trust anyone who thinks like that I’m afraid, so once again the world needs to do the right thing

The world does need to do the right thing. While the world thinks about doing the right thing, the hospital in Gaza is running out of supplies unless aid gets through before more kids die.

I find it strange, everyone on here replied and quoted every single one of my comments bar one. One that contained a link to the 10 dead kids who were under the arm of the Norwegian Refugee Camp in Gaza, but hey, the argument for land is more of a priority.

 

[Diego]

The world does need to do the right thing. While the world thinks about doing the right thing, the hospital in Gaza is running out of supplies unless aid gets through before more kids die.

I find it strange, everyone on here replied and quoted every single one of my comments bar one. One that contained a link to the 10 dead kids who were under the arm of the Norwegian Refugee Camp in Gaza, but hey, the argument for land is more of a priority.

You should be asking who is killing these kids, people with home made rockets or others with precise laser guided missiles

Norwegian refugee camp sounds like the right kind of place to launch attacks from

 

[Spurlock]

The world does need to do the right thing. While the world thinks about doing the right thing, the hospital in Gaza is running out of supplies unless aid gets through before more kids die.

I find it strange, everyone on here replied and quoted every single one of my comments bar one. One that contained a link to the 10 dead kids who were under the arm of the Norwegian Refugee Camp in Gaza, but hey, the argument for land is more of a priority.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested once that children dying is not a concern if you actually read the posts and what is meant by their detail

Anyway this is a good quick vid that shows shows the Britain doing what it does best

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[brb]

You should be asking who is killing these kids, people with home made rockets or others with precise laser guided missiles

Norwegian refugee camp sounds like the right kind of place to launch attacks from

I've already previously said Israel were hitting targets with precision. Where did I say anyone was launching attacks from a refugee camp, that's your narrative and that of the Israeli's.

 

[brb]

I don’t think anyone here has suggested once that children dying is not a concern if you actually read the posts and what is meant by their detail

Anyway this is a good quick vid that shows shows the Britain doing what it does best

You must log in or register to see media

Stop preaching mate, I don't need to see videos, I know exactly what is going on the with the US and UK government, why do you feel you need to prove that to me, do you see yourself as superior, maybe you should actually take the trouble to understand my opinion.

I'm in the comfort of my home the same as you, doing as much about it as you, which is nothing. You want to convince me how they must die for the land, I want to suggest that we need to stop the killing of kids, and Hamas should stop firing as much as Israel should stop firing.

I really don't care who stops first unlike you, because my priority is the saving of human lives.

 

[Diego]

I've already previously said Israel were hitting targets with precision. Where did I say anyone was launching attacks from a refugee camp, that's your narrative and that of the Israeli's.

You didn't, but we are told that the kids are being killed s collateral damage/human shields when Israel fire back at bases used to launch rockets.
That is why i assumed this bit happened

everyone on here replied and quoted every single one of my comments bar one. One that contained a link to the 10 dead kids who were under the arm of the Norwegian Refugee Camp in Gaza

Unless you are saying it was 10 Israeli kids that were killed in the refugee camp by Palestinian rockets?

 

[brb]

Right I'm out, someone elses turn to take over.

 

[Spurlock]

Stop preaching mate, I don't need to see videos, I know exactly what is going on the with the US and UK government, why do you feel you need to prove that to me, do you see yourself as superior, maybe you should actually take the trouble to understand my opinion.

I'm in the comfort of my home the same as you, doing as much about it as you, which is nothing. You want to convince me how they must die for the land, I want to suggest that we need to stop the killing of kids, and Hamas should stop firing as much as Israel should stop firing.

I really don't care who stops first unlike you, because my priority is the saving of human lives.

Preaching

stfu and go and have a Jaffa cake

 

[brb]

Preaching

stfu and go and have a Jaffa cake

 

[Treble]

War is **** for this precise reason. I can't think of one where innocent folk and children haven't been killed.

On a general principle we should avoid war at all costs and it should certainly be as a last resort.

But this country defended itself, because it had to 80 years ago, knowing they would have to endure many innocent casualties. I can't blame the Palestinians for doing the same tbh.

 

[Spurlock]

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[Citizen Kane.]

Thought I'd catch up on the thread and stopped at your post. Probably saved me having to read another 10 pages tbf

Anyway, bit late but in response to some of your points:

You give reasons of a threat to Jewish identity for why Israel cannot give Palestinians the same right of return, and you use this as some sort of justification for their discriminatory actions, yet you fail to recognise that the same threat to integrity of Palestinian identity in Jerusalem is very much a reality. They are being systematically displaced.

So no, sorry there’s no understanding here. Certainly not without understanding the Palestinians have been facing the same threat for decades but are powerless to do anything about it. The Palestinians don’t have any power or control over the rights of their identity and occupation in East Jerusalem when Israel can arbitrarily impose laws which dictate their rights over that of the Palestinians. So facing a threat to their identity, and without the same rights over residency, what do you expect them to do? What would you do?

This happened at the Damascus Gate. There’s no need for “extra security measures”. More than 100,000 to 200,000 people pass through that Gate in a day during Ramadan and it's been happening from time and memorial. There’s no crowd control issue. It’s always orderly and very calm. And historically when Israeli soldiers have made little fuss, there’s been little or no problem. Even during the year when Trump in his infinite wisdom decided to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.

What’s changed and raised tensions in recent years is the construction of an IDF watchtower at the gate and the decision this year to stick a barrier in the plaza in front of the gate so people couldn’t congregate. It just so happens that over the last couple of years Jerusalem Day has also fallen within Ramadan. It’s not been too troublesome but this year, putting up barriers to Palestinians whilst allowing Israeli nationalist to march through East Jerusalem to the Gate, to celebrate Jerusalem Day was clearly seen as yet another double standard and a provocation.

And why is it that? Because Fatah is corrupt as fck and Abbas is a weak stooge, whilst Hamas is rightly seen by many Palestinians as a grass roots movement that provides welfare and services that make a real difference to the most impoverished on the ground.

It’s a mess, but this debacle has been caused by Israel changing its constitution 25 years ago and creating a situation where minority parties literally dictate the most extreme policies and rhetoric when it comes to Palestinians and minorities including some abhorrent homophobic **** which is as bad as anything you’ll see in some Arab countries. Yamina has only 7 seats, but their leader is actually being backed to become Prime Minister. That’s how fcked up the system is - that this could even be considered a reality in a democratic state.

- Some observations on the Palestinian position:

Yeh this is the ‘go to’ rhetoric we get quite a lot. Hamas’s charter - words on paper. It’s used by those who want to divert away from and shut down any move towards dialogue and peace rather than encourage it.

Hamas is far more considered than you give them credit for. Even when Hamas was opposed to the Oslo Accords it adopted a “wait and see” approach. Why? Because regardless of the propaganda, Hamas very much follows the desire of the people they govern and when the majority of Palestinians saw hope of peace through the Oslo Accords, Hamas respected those wishes. Why? Because Hamas at its core spends its time dedicated to social welfare and delivering infrastructure and services to the poorest and disadvantaged in Palestinian territories. Whether that's in healthcare and medical treatment, housing, jobs, food and water, education, and financial aid to the most needy in one of the poorest, deprived part of the world.

Whether it’s their actions during the Oslo Accords or whether its as recent as 4 years ago when a number of their leaders and even the Charter you quoted, have moved to a position of recognising the 1967 borders, the point is, it’s wrong to keep brushing aside the realism of a two state solution by being absolute in your views about what Hamas will or won’t do. Why not start the process, include them in talks and then see what happens?

As for the Israel’s right wing parties, as stated above that’s a problem of Israel’s own making. They changed their own constitution in the 90’s so that minority tin-pot right wing extremist parties get to be king makers in the Knesset and hold to ransom moderate governments so that none can move forward towards any two state solution. It’s also why no Party can hold on to power longer than a few months or years.

Your last sentence once again gives away your position on all this. And all you’ve done again is throw up more obstacles to reinforce a notion that it’s pointless to pursue a two-state solution.

What you’ve described here is irrelevant. The 1967 borders which is the blueprint for any two state solution and which pretty much everyone considers the starting point, has no “slicing of Israel”. Show me the contiguous link between the two territories in the picture below…

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3) Hamas and Fatah only hate Israel more than they hate each other. There is really no need to elaborate on this.

So what if they do? Another reason to give up and not bother?

And tbh yes it is worth elaborating. Pretty much every political organisation in Israel and the Palestinian West Bank is corrupt as fck. Whether it’s Netanyahu or Abbas... the Likud Party or Fatah. Hamas may not be whiter than white and the propaganda machine is doing a fine job of painting them as somehow worse than every other player in the game, but they’re probably the most honest and straightforward of the lot.

Hamas terrifies you. A bit of balance wouldn’t go amiss here. They hold fck all power in the grand scheme of things. But Otzma Yehudit or Religious Zionist Party or Yamina who actually hold power and influence what happens in Palestinian territories which amounts to nothing short of ethnic cleansing, don’t terrify you? The 1000+ Palestinian civilians killed and 80,000+ civilans injured, all by Israeli ammunition and air strikes in the past 6 years AFTER the last Gaza offensive don’t frighten you?

Comparing the situation in Gaza to Manhattan is also mindboggling. When Manhattan is under illegal occupation by a foreign power by means of air, land and sea blockade, when its skies are patrolled by helicopter gunships, when its citizens, goods imports and medicine have to go through military checkpoints, when their exports completely stopped, when it has 12 hours electricity per day, and little or clean water – all thanks to an illegal blockade condemned under international law, when its citizens have had their homes destroyed, and half its population live under poverty line… then we’ll see if the good folk of Manhattan plant rocket launchers and military camps in the middle of Wall Street and you can make the comparison. There’s no Central Park in Gaza mate, just rubble.

In answer to your question specifically about bomb shelters, try reading this… https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0717/Why-Gaza-doesn-t-have-bomb-shelters

- Some observations on the Israeli position:

How useful is it when talking about Palestinians? A constructive approach to Israelis with discriminatory views based on religious dogma but let’s write off any constructive dialogue with Palestinians who do the same because they’re beyond help?

*the propaganda induced perception of an Iranian threat.

*two failed attempts more than 20+ years ago, failed as a result of one man (and a great man I might add) being assassinated by one of their own.

Agreed.

- Some observations on the International position:

Agreed. But perhaps Western sanctions like those imposed on South African would have greater impact. Maybe the U.S. Congress can enact a law similar to the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act it did in 1986? Yes I can hear you laughing..

The best way of achieving any real success towards a peaceful settlement can only come about through covert, behind doors negotiations between ALL stakeholders including Hamas. No pre-conditions, everyone comes with their batshit crazy ideas and that’s the starting point... and nobody leaves until compromise and an agreement is reached.

Thanks very much for your response, Treble. You raise a number of really important points which I am happy to give my perspective on. As I stressed earlier, I try as hard as I can to make 'observations' only. I apologise if any indirect bias comes across in those points, it is not my intention. A big part of my training in my years there was to focus on 'possible/impossible' rather than 'right/wrong'. It is really painful to have to do that, but it does help to re-frame the debate and keep it forward-thinking rather than stuck in the same circular, stale arguments we've all heard a thousand times over.

1) The Sheikh Jarrah Case

I think you might have read too much into my comments here, but I've probably done you a disservice by conflating two threads of discussion.
- The first is instances of Israel evicting Palestinian residents of East J'lem with no reason to do so. I fully disagree with and condemn this if and when it happens.
- I was commenting specifically on the Sheikh Jarrah case in isolation, as it is acknowledged as the chief 'trigger' behind the current flare up. The eviction of 6 Palestinian families from their homes in the neighbourhood was done off the back of a law that is without question discriminatory at first glance. The Israeli citizens set to move back in to those homes had clear, court-verified proof that they had owned that land prior to being evicted by Jordan in 1948. Israeli law recognises that proof. Why does it not recognise similar proof when brought by Palestinian residents of Israel 'proper' pre-1948? The answer to this question has two components. Firstly: that the global Palestinian expat population (i.e. people who could potentially file such claims) has grown to appx. the same size as Israel's entire population since 1948. Secondly, that similar legal representation has historically been denied Jewish citizens similarly evicted from Arab countries in 1948. Again - I don't agree with Israel's position on this and would gladly welcome a 'quota' system whereby at least a percentage of Palestinian expats could file claims and have them upheld.

- Agreed, the watchtower is a serious eyesore and totally unnecessary. However, it was built in 2018 iirc, so not necessarily clear that it is directly connected to a flare-up 3 years later.

- The Jerusalem Day march is indeed a provocation but (sadly) totally legal by every western measure of the right to gather and demonstrate (if done peacefully). Unless I am mistaken, the march this year was diverted away from its normal route to prevent further provocation. I know the NGO I worked for was lobbying heavily for this diversion to happen and I hope it did. I also hope the route stays 'diverted' in future years.

- East Jerusalem is a major sticking point. I disagree strongly with Israel's insistence on a 'united capital' when it is clear that the city is totally divided. And there is nothing much wrong with that. A lasting solution would almost certainly require an Israeli capital in West Jerusalem and a Palestinian one in East Jerusalem, so Israel should start adjusting to that reality sooner rather than later.

2) Israeli/Palestinian Leadership

- We seem to be in agreement on most points here. Being that it is that Fatah is totally inept and corrupt, while Hamas in word and deed is committed to the destruction of Israel, it seems unlikely that the executive branches as they exist today would get around a table to negotiate. Netanyahu is personally too right-wing and too far in the pockets of parties even further to the right, anything Fatah promises will carry as much trust as a damp tissue, whilst anything Hamas says will be seen as subterfuge or a deliberate game of smoke and mirrors. There is a real vacuum of strong, reliable leaders across the entire region right now. If and when the Palestinian elections ever take place, Israel may need to do the unthinkable and commute Marwan Barghouti's prison sentence. He is one of the few people alive who both Gazans and West Bankers would rally around. He is also tough enough to stand up to Netanyahu.

- I think your point about Israel changing its constitution is factually incorrect. iirc, in 1988 the Kenesset raised the electoral threshold from 1% to 1.5% precisely to prevent smaller parties holding disproportionate sway. This decision was crucial in paving the way for the Oslo Accords to clear the Israeli legislature as the 1992 election saw numerous small right-wing parties drop out of the Kenesset entirely, allowing Rabin to build a coalition made up of just 3 parties. Israel has since then raised the threshold to 3.25%, as well as removing the clause allowing the PM to be elected directly, all in a bid to return more stable governments and prevent fringe parties from having too much of a say. This clearly isn't working anymore and debate is raging in Israel at the moment as to how much this has to do with Netanyahu personally and how much it has to do with the fact that politics has polarised globally and QED further electoral reform is needed (either increasing the threshold to 5% or introducing elements of FPTP).

3) The Palestinian Position

- I think this is probably the bit we are furthest apart on. I cannot agree with how casually you deal with the Hamas question. Brushing something aside as a 'go-to rhetoric' when every measurable evidence - in word and in deed - points to the fact that it isn't just rhetoric, is not a sensible position to take and certainly not one a single Israeli beyond perhaps the most ardently left-wing will take seriously. You do the same Re the Iranian threat and - forgive me for slipping into a 'judgement' here - it would seem that you cherry pick which threats to take seriously and which to dismiss as mere bluster. As above, I try to focus on 'possible/impossible', and until Hamas fundamentally changes its raison d'etre, negotiation with it as an entity is as close to impossible as you can get. The fact that it is a grassroots organisation (still highly corrupt btw) that cares for welfare and aid is strictly an internal Palestinian issue that cannot and should not bear any relevance to Israel's opinion.

- Hamas did not adopt a 'wait and see' approach to Oslo. It rejected Oslo three times. Most recently in 2017.

- Hamas' 2017 Charter does indeed include a section that looks like it approves of a two-state solution. Here is that clause in full. I ask you to read it and guess what the average Israeli thinks of Hamas' commitment to that solution:
"Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

- Israeli suspicion of Hamas' motives in their 2017 Charter are buttressed by internal speeches and interviews (its co-founder Mahmoud Al-Zahar tends to be the most inflammatory in this regard) which suggest that its embrace of the 1967 borders are merely a ruse and a preliminary step toward the eventual liberation of the entire region and Israel's destruction.

4) The Two-State Solution

- A contiguous link between Gaza and the W Bank is the only way a two-state solution doesn't become a three-state solution. It is crucial by every moral and political measure that the Palestinians of Gaza are able to access their kin in the West Bank, and vice-versa. As you can see on the map you've provided, the only way to do this is to construct a road straight across Israel proper. There is a surprising level of support for this among grassroots Israelis despite the fact that it is a logistical nightmare, but categorically not if one end of the road (or both, if Hamas wins the elections in the West Bank) is controlled by a movement sworn to its destruction.

- Yes, Hamas terrifies me more than Israel does. When all is said and done, Israel is a democracy. It is a democracy whose electorate is steadily growing sick of Netanyahu and his generation of politician and is pushing louder with each failed election for real and lasting reform. Hamas masquerades under the illusion of democracy. I was on the ground during the civil war and elections in 2006/7 and it was painfully obvious that Hamas was strong-arming its way into office via forged ballots and voter intimidation. Since then, it has been accountable and answerable to no-one and cannot, unlike Netanyahu, be removed from power internally unless fair and transparent voting is guaranteed.

- The article you've cited Re Hamas' failure to construct bomb shelters made me grimace. It seems to be suggesting that since concrete is a scarce commodity (which it is, due to blockades - agreed), what little they have is best served in creating tunnels from which they can attack Israel? And secondly, that as it is so expensive to protect all 1.5 million people, it is better not to protect any at all? I hope you see how perverse that reasoning is.

- So yes, in conclusion to all of the above, second only to Israel, the greatest enemies of the Palestinian people are their own leaders. Fatah for their impotence and corruption, and Hamas for their total disregard of the peace process at every demonstrable level, using their civilian population in a lethal game of cat and mouse.

- Re the Gaza/Manhattan comparison, I certainly didn't mean it as flippantly or as broadly as you have deduced. I agree, the situation in Gaza from a humanitarian perspective is horrendous and I feel only sympathy for the innocent people trapped in that hell hole. To my mind, the only feasible way forward is a new generation of leaders across the board, the international community (especially the Gulf States who have done feck all to help in 50 years) massively stepping up its overseeing a new peace process with a fresh impetus, as well as massive economic investment in the Palestinian territories (the one thing Trump got right imo, he recognised that increased prosperity and opportunity is key to unlocking a willing young generation pushing for peace).

Thanks again for your comments and ideas

 

[PINKIE]

So are you suggesting I'm gaslighting because I hate seeing kids get killed?

It's called having opinion, my opinion don't have to be the same as yours, it don't mean that I don't want the same end result.

Yeah I know you want the same outcome

I’m not accusing you of gaslighting, but it seems to be the overall narrative when Palestine defends itself. ‘it’s your fault your kids are dying, because you’re fighting back’

As treble has pointed out, kids were dying before this anyway. I remember a few years ago seeing a video of 4 dead lads on a beach, all around 8-10 years old. They had been playing football. Israel decided to send a missile to that beach ... a beach ? For what ? There was no aggression from Palestine that day.

And this is the nub of it. Israel can choose where and when it decides to turn the screw on Palestinians. It’s not always rockets, sometimes it’s cutting the electric supply off, sometimes it’s blocking vital supplies. It’s the daily chipping away at their identity and humanity.

It’s like keeping a dog in a cage, starving and tormenting it. Eventually it’s going to bite you.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Yeah I know you want the same outcome

I’m not accusing you of gaslighting, but it seems to be the overall narrative when Palestine defends itself. ‘it’s your fault your kids are dying, because you’re fighting back’

As treble has pointed out, kids were dying before this anyway. I remember a few years ago seeing a video of 4 dead lads on a beach, all around 8-10 years old. They had been playing football. Israel decided to send a missile to that beach ... a beach ? For what ? There was no aggression from Palestine that day.

And this is the nub of it. Israel can choose where and when it decides to turn the screw on Palestinians. It’s not always rockets, sometimes it’s cutting the electric supply off, sometimes it’s blocking vital supplies. It’s the daily chipping away at their identity and humanity.

It’s like keeping a dog in a cage, starving and tormenting it. Eventually it’s going to bite you.

How is firing rockets at unknown targets ‘defending itself’ Ponk?

Let’s not get this twisted, it’s an attack, it’s not a defence. The iron dome is a defence.

The rockets fired at “Anywhere will do, just launch as many as possible” does not constitute a ‘defence’ does it? It’s a shoot from the hip exercise conducted by a terrorist organisation to cause any amount of damage to life and property that is possible.

It’s an attack, there’s two aggressors in play here and one happens to have a battery of precision weapons.

 

[Saf]

I certainly wouldn't keep fighting my cause if it meant my kids and grandkids got killed, unless I knew it would be something left for the sake of all Palestinians, but as I said there is only go to be one winner.

Tired of Aber littering the convo so will pause it now.

Hamas fire rockets from civilian areas. They know that civilian deaths including women and children wins them the propaganda war.

 

[Saf]

After an initial loss of territory by the Jewish state and its occupation by the Arab armies, from July the tide gradually turned in the Israelis' favour and they pushed the Arab armies out and conquered some of the territory that had been included in the proposed Arab state.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This says it all for me. The Arabs are simply out-gunned. They want that land all to themselves as much as the Jewish people. The Jewish state have the firepower to defeat them anytime that they want. I'm under no illusions though if the Arabs could get the backing and the firepower that Israel have they'd remove every single Jew from that area. They have tried and, I believe it's a non-negotiable priority with Hamas still to this day that Israel ceases to exist.

It's always been a 50/50 thing with me and as usual it's the innocents that are largely caught up in the fighting.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Let’s be honest, if Iran really cared about the Palestinians they’d prepare themselves and get their jets in the air. They’re full of **** though, because they know they have no chance of a win, so they just keep funding this mess to keep the proxy war ticking over. Until that country is a dust bowl the Middle East will pay for Iranian politics.

 

[Spurlock]

Rock, paper, scissors was invented to solve issues like this