Is Warnock taking us down?

[ninian opinion]

Hi Sparkey. I came over to the Cardiff forum on the back of seeing your lot signing that Sala fella - surprised that it doesn't seem to be more of a point of discussion(?).

Without wanting to sound like a sour rival fan, it could be that you're now seeing the downside of Warnock. He has a very good record of getting teams promoted, but I think there's a reason he's never spent particularly long at a club since his stint at Sheffield United - he seems quite focussed on short-term success and by extension at least partially complicit in things being allowed to slide.

It may be over-simplifying/generalising, but the impression I get is that his success has come from maximising the fundamentals, i.e. be fitter than the opponent, be hard (but fair) in the tackle, be direct etc. Again, I don't want to make out that I'm having a dig at his approach, but what I'm getting at is that his approach seems to be ' If you play a technical game then we'll be defensively sound enough to keep you out more often than not, then we'll capitalise on your mistakes and make the most of our own chances.' This is fine, except in the step up to the Premiership, it's obviously much harder to keep opponents at bay by allowing them possession and there are far fewer mistakes to capitalise on.

I think you have shown glimpses of being an effective counter-attacking side, but the worrying thing from your perspective is that performances seem to be getting worse, rather than better. The Huddersfield game was a golden opportunity to get three points and, objectively, you were a bit lucky to get just one.

Still, maybe the additions of Sala and Niasse will prove enough to start to change the tide - it would only take a few good results to build up a bit of a cushion to the bottom three. If Warnock actually used Reid correctly then he can help you do that!

You’ve made some great points. Very hard not to agree with everything you’ve posted.

Problem is it’s almost impossible to get a run together. One week you’ve got Arsenal or Chelsea then the next you’ve got Everton or Watford. These teams are light years ahead in terms of quality and tactics. In reality the season is only 20 odd games where there’s a realistic chance of getting points.

We all love Warnock and had to accept he should be given a final chance to secure some PL success but deep down I certainly was pessimistic about our chances given his poor track record and his underwhelming PL squad. In hindsight someone should have been asked to help in shaping the squad but no way in the world would NW have agreed to that.

As Old Sparky says above it’s really all going to boil down to the next 10 days. Otherwise City are no more at present than a middle table championship team which cannot compete with the teams around them. All the good things going on after the Palace and Leicester performances were flattened by 3 truly dismal displays v Spurs (expected) Huddersfield (not so) and Newcastle (expected).

Ps Bristol going well. Good luck

 

[Oldsparkey]

Can't believe there aren't other posters on here who don't have an opinion one way or another on this subject. We've even had Nick the wurzel across to join in - and he's more than welcome any time.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum and it doesn't matter what your opinion is about the thread title - let's have some views on the way things have gone so far. it's not a question of arguing, just talking about our club.

What we wish for in this transfer window and how we'll finish come May is all pure speculation. At least we can all express opinions on what we've actually experienced so far as supporters and the possible reasons for it - so let's have some.

 

[Hilts24]

Yes we will go down.

Thats not my concern. We need to sign at least 1 CM who will still be with us next season in the Championship.

If not Joe Ralls will be the only CM on the books.

Lets just go for it these last 15 games. Murphy back in. Who cares if he doesnt track back. Weve spent 10m on Reid give him a run in the team. Stop pulling everyone back for corners.

 

[Oldsparkey]

Yes we will go down.

Thats not my concern. We need to sign at least 1 CM who will still be with us next season in the Championship.

If not Joe Ralls will be the only CM on the books.

Lets just go for it these last 15 games. Murphy back in. Who cares if he doesnt track back. Weve spent 10m on Reid give him a run in the team. Stop pulling everyone back for corners.

Agree totally with the final sentence - and if we do that, we might end up proving your first sentence wrong.

Looking for a Championship midfielder right now is going to admit defeat. We need to vary our gameplans far more and stop being so negative.

We should strengthen in centre mid and play a different type of game to the one that's put us in the bottom three. The question is will we do it - or probably more accurately, can Warnock do it?

 

[taffthefish]

The inept performances against Huddersfield and Newcastle will definitely impact the calibre of player we are likely to attract. A potential star midfielder of the future will see us as a backward step in their career.
With regard to Sala, I am confused as to what brought him to Cardiff. He was quoted as wanting European competition, be it Europa cup or Champions League, and settles for a relegation threatened side he didn't want to join (alleged). It’s a foot in the premier league and he will need to show his worth pretty damned quickly.
Arter staying is a bonus, but we need someone a bit more creative and of a much higher calibre than we already have. If we get that calibre of player then the urgency for a right back is lessened slightly as the midfield would be stronger and less inclined to allowing other teams as much freedom.
It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

 

[Oldsparkey]

The inept performances against Huddersfield and Newcastle will definitely impact the calibre of player we are likely to attract. A potential star midfielder of the future will see us as a backward step in their career.
With regard to Sala, I am confused as to what brought him to Cardiff. He was quoted as wanting European competition, be it Europa cup or Champions League, and settles for a relegation threatened side he didn't want to join (alleged). It’s a foot in the premier league and he will need to show his worth pretty damned quickly.
Arter staying is a bonus, but we need someone a bit more creative and of a much higher calibre than we already have. If we get that calibre of player then the urgency for a right back is lessened slightly as the midfield would be stronger and less inclined to allowing other teams as much freedom.
It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

I thought I'd bump this thread back to the top because it went away when we won a couple of games, but now it's relevant again.

Taff - notice your post at this time mentions Sala joining us just on the day he went missing - what a sad affair that has turned out to be.

Anyway back to the thread. Can the bloke keep us up?

 

[aberdude]

I thought I'd bump this thread back to the top because it went away when we won a couple of games, but now it's relevant again.

Taff - notice your post at this time mentions Sala joining us just on the day he went missing - what a sad affair that has turned out to be.

Anyway back to the thread. Can the bloke keep us up?

Fixtures are not looking good for us so probably not, especially if some players don’t give 100% each and every minute of every game......the only thing that may save us is there’s a few teams around pretty **** and all.

I’m a what will be will be man when it’s out of my own hands

 

[NickH]

I think there's a very good chance we'll see each other again next season. Unfortunately that statement means something very different now to how it would have been even a week ago.

 

[aberdude]

I think there's a very good chance we'll see each other again next season. Unfortunately that statement means something very different now to how it would have been even a week ago.

That’s the way the cookie crumbles Dude.

 

[ninian opinion]

I think there's a very good chance we'll see each other again next season. Unfortunately that statement means something very different now to how it would have been even a week ago.

Top 5 in the championship look set in stone with many clubs hovering round looking to snare that 6th spot.

As for Cardiff, it’s pretty obvious that our manager is from a different generation which is a mile away from what is now needed in the PL. it’ll only be due to a lot of graft and luck with Brighton & Southampton not improving, that they stay up because on tactics they’re playing like it’s 1985 with Div 2 players.

 

[taffthefish]

I cannot comment on the last two games as I didn't get to see them. I intended to watch the Everton game but fell asleep prior to kick-off. NW seems to be clutching at straws right now. It doesn't help matters when players are pulling their weight. To lose so heavily to teams who are not in the top tier of this league is not acceptable. We lost away to both teams 1-0 and 3-2 respectively, but to lose 1-5 and 0-3 at home! This can only be placed at the door of the manager. Something is going wrong and NW doesn't appear to be able to get any more out of the lads.
Now, is it time for a new manager? That is a difficult one.
If we were now effectively down and out of the premier league, I'd say yes. Get a new manager in, so they can start the rebuilding process now rather than in the summer. Let's face it, the team as it is right now would struggle in the championship next season. We'll need a whole new midfield as Camarasa, Gunnarson and Arter will leave if we are relegated.

Would NW offer a contract to Camarasa given recent events?
Arter says he loves it at Cardiff, but would he stay if offered a premier league team?
Gunnarson may stay longer, has he signed a new deal?
We are not going to attract higher quality players unless we pay more in wages, that would be foolish.

Mathematically, we're still in it, but we need to win some games and quickly.

 

[suprimir]

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[remote]

Gunnar won't stay staff, especially if we go down. He's said as much.
Camarasa has blotted his copy book and don't see him playing championship football. Arter is better than championship and has wages to match.
Player recruitment will obviously depend on where we are playing next season. We'll cut our cloth accordingly.
Bad couple of losses in the last 2 games. Like chalk and cheese from the 3 games before.
I keep dabbling between glass half full and half empty. You can guess where it is at the moment.

 

[Oldsparkey]

.

Hey Suprimir - why did you edit out your original post on this thread pal?

I've read it and there's nothing wrong with it and was a very well expressed opinion. We'd like to hear more from you on the forum.

Having said that, would you like me to return your post to your original text - I have the power you know.

 

[Oldsparkey]

As for Cardiff, it’s pretty obvious that our manager is from a different generation which is a mile away from what is now needed in the PL. it’ll only be due to a lot of graft and luck with Brighton & Southampton not improving, that they stay up because on tactics they’re playing like it’s 1985 with Div 2 players.

Can't let this go without a comment or two.

I realise we've got 30,000 managers in the stands who all have opinions but not the close up knowledge of Warnock, but I reckon we lost that game before we went on the pitch. The team selection was wrong. It was far too defensive a setup for a home game and gave Everton a lift from the off.

There was no way for this game that Hoilett and Mendez should have started over Murphy and Paterson - at the moment they are impact subs at best especially for a home fixture. They were probably chosen for their defensive abilities rather than their attacking options. What a huge mistake that was against a side suffering poor form recently.

In the enforced absence of Niasse, Murphy should have started for his pace - defenders do not like pacy players running at them. Paterson also should have started alongside Reid behind Zohore to provide the link and trouble the likes of Jagielka with his physical approach. Either Paterson or Reid could have moved wide right during the game to provide some width out there with Murphy on the left.

It's only an opinion from someone sitting there in the stands suffering, but I reckon we could easily have won that game instead of virtually handing it on a plate to Everton. This management team are as much responsible as the players out there. Where the tactics have been right on occasions previously, they were wrong on Tuesday and we paid the penalty.

 

[BluefromBridgend]

Can't let this go without a comment or two.

I realise we've got 30,000 managers in the stands who all have opinions but not the close up knowledge of Warnock, but I reckon we lost that game before we went on the pitch. The team selection was wrong. It was far too defensive a setup for a home game and gave Everton a lift from the off.

There was no way for this game that Hoilett and Mendez should have started over Murphy and Paterson - at the moment they are impact subs at best especially for a home fixture. They were probably chosen for their defensive abilities rather than their attacking options. What a huge mistake that was against a side suffering poor form recently.

In the enforced absence of Niasse, Murphy should have started for his pace - defenders do not like pacy players running at them. Paterson also should have started alongside Reid behind Zohore to provide the link and trouble the likes of Jagielka with his physical approach. Either Paterson or Reid could have moved wide right during the game to provide some width out there with Murphy on the left.

It's only an opinion from someone sitting there in the stands suffering, but I reckon we could easily have won that game instead of virtually handing it on a plate to Everton. This management team are as much responsible as the players out there. Where the tactics have been right on occasions previously, they were wrong on Tuesday and we paid the penalty.

I agree on the selection and would also have gone with Murphy and Pato. However I also think it was a poor decision to drop Arter.

I wasn't at the Watford game but others and Warnock have said he had a poor second half. However he is our one player with any real Prem experience and surely would have wanted to correct his Watford performance. He would have brought more drive and energy to our midfield plus an ability to shoot from distance. Gunnar tried twice and failed miserably - row Z for one and an embarrassing throw in for the other.

Finally despite the poor wing play - contributed to by poor, slow service - it was in defence where our real failings occurred. For their first Bennett passed into touch, Hoilett didn't track back with Coleman and similarly neither Gunnar nor Bacuna followed Siggurdson. For their second Manga flopped a pass straight back to them (and not for the first time, he is a great coverer and tackler but can't pass to save his life). Even Theo Wheelchair got off a few shots, thankfully none on target.

In summary, a piss poor performance from virtually everyone. How Warnock turns this around on Saturday I don't know as morale must be rock bottom.

Disgruntled from Bridgend.

 

[Oldsparkey]

Bluey - the Arter ommision from midfield was another odd one. The gap between the defensive Gunnar/Bacuna combo and the front runners wasn't just a gap, it was a chasm.

There was far too much rush in getting Morro back in the side. It contributed to our downfall against Watford and Warnock's insistance to include him against Everton pushed Manga out to RB - that was another disaster waiting to happen.

Far better to have left Manga in the middle alongside Bamba and shoved Bacuna in at right back. That would have made a spot for Arter in midfield to provide a much better balance and fill the obvious gap that Everton exploited.

Arter, Murphy and Pato instead of Morro, Hoilett and Mendez. All hindsight speculation I know, but I reckon we'd have had a different result with those changes to the starting line up, and probably be still above Southampton now.

 

[ninian opinion]

It’s reported city will have no injury problems for tomorrow.

So he has a stack of options which will inevitably mean he’ll tinker again.

He doesn’t seem to know his best starting X1 or appropriate formation.

I’m not even going to bother speculating as to the line up but for sure we’ll be scratching our heads when it’s announced

 

[BluefromBridgend]

It’s reported city will have no injury problems for tomorrow.

So he has a stack of options which will inevitably mean he’ll tinker again.

He doesn’t seem to know his best starting X1 or appropriate formation.

I’m not even going to bother speculating as to the line up but for sure we’ll be scratching our heads when it’s announced

What? Even Jazz is fit?

I can't believe that.

 

[FrankfurterBlue]

In response to the OP, I fear we may go down but I struggle to blame NW. He hasn't done the best with the monies he was given but he got a bad break with Sala, who might well have changed things. But at other times, he has got more out of the team and games than expected.
I fully accept that I do not suffer through games and see results, mostly. I would dearly love to survive, even accepting that every season that we do will prolong the stress. But I think he deserves to lose the reputation of getting teams up and then nor keeping them there. Of course, it is all heart over head but that's my take on things.