Is there a natural order in football and should we try to upset it?

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St. Luigi Scrosoppi

St. Luigi Scrosoppi

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2011
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Southampton
The Grimsby Telegraph said this about Nigel's sacking:

"It was never going to be long before Southampton's notoriously impatient chairman Nicola Cortese, like so many chairmen before him, got ideas above his station and went in search of a more "glamorous" figure in the dug-out."

The "..ideas above his station.." comment set me thinking do newspapers have a mindset about exactly where a club should be in the league and they don't like an upstart trying to alter that perception?

Then I thought that if this is the newspaper's mindset and the way the people of Grimsby think then that is probably why they are where they are and have always been. If there paper has no ambition what chance do they have? It also set me thinking that perhaps Nicola is right in his stance with our apology of a local newspaper (sorry rag) as their ambition does not match his.

Then I thought should we be like Ronnie Corbett's working class man in the sketch and "know our place"?
 
Many of us are old enough to know remember Ipswich, Saints and perhaps most Famously Forest have all upset the apple cart in fairly short succession. In those days it was a slightly more level, albeit muddier, playing field. Now either you have bottomless pocket owners or have already built revenue streams that to some extent self perpetuate. So, there are two ways to challenge.. 1. Find an owner with bottomless pocket. 2. Develop an academy/youth system. Saints now have the second, but we do not know how far the owners will support.. Given that Saints survive this season in this league our very promising young players will have developed into highly desirable assets. For example it is not difficult to foresee our fullbacks playing for England in the next world cup, but will they be playing for Saints? If I could answer yes to that question then we have every chance changing the 'natural order'. Keep the players and the revenue streams will develop, but they will have to develop to compete with the wage structures elsewhere.. Could be Catch 22, that's Cortese's challenge..
 
Manchester City were in League One/Division Two 15 years ago, so there's no reason why a club couldn't break into the top four and disturb the apple cart, in the long run anyway. We've seen Spurs come on leaps and bounds over the past couple of seasons too, whereas before they were in and around the Europa League spots.

Naturally there is a hierarchy in the league, that's to be expected with teams such as United, Arsenal etc in company. But that doesn't mean the natural order is set in stone, you just have to look at Liverpool to see how quickly it could change, and then to teams like Nottingham Forest who have fallen from where they once were decades ago.
 
Archers Road said:
Are you suggesting that Grimsby Town FC should aim for the Champions League?
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As long as someone manages them financially prudently, then they can aim for what they like. It is like anything in life, if you don't set a high target and take that first step, with a good plan, then you won't get anywhere.
 
Gay Bacon Strips said:
Manchester City were in League One/Division Two 15 years ago, so there's no reason why a club couldn't break into the top four and disturb the apple cart, in the long run anyway. We've seen Spurs come on leaps and bounds over the past couple of seasons too, whereas before they were in and around the Europa League spots.

Naturally there is a hierarchy in the league, that's to be expected with teams such as United, Arsenal etc in company. But that doesn't mean the natural order is set in stone, you just have to look at Liverpool to see how quickly it could change, and then to teams like Nottingham Forest who have fallen from where they once were decades ago.
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And guess what? They may not have fallen so far, if 20 years ago they had a chairman with big enough balls to make an unpopular decision. One of the greatest managers ever (if not the greatest in terms of resource management) should have stopped managing that team a few years before he did.... by then it was too late. Wish I'd thought about that a week ago.
 
I think the the comment about Nic having ideas above his station is referring not to his desire for Southampton to break into the top 8 or 6 or whatever, but rather the fact that he seems to be expecting it straight away which is above the station of any promoted club who should really be aiming to stay up first and foremost. Anything else probably is above their station.
 
PompeyLapras said:
I think the the comment about Nic having ideas above his station is referring not to his desire for Southampton to break into the top 8 or 6 or whatever, but rather the fact that he seems to be expecting it straight away which is above the station of any promoted club who should really be aiming to stay up first and foremost. Anything else probably is above their station.
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not when youve spent as much money as we have!
 
Seems to me that the natural order is simply an expression of the top six positions in the EPL for any given era. That is so inextricably linked to the resources spent that throwing enough money can push a club into the frame and we have the examples of Chelsea and Citeh. It doesn't always work immediately but if the pockets are deep enough then it most likely will.
Could Saints break into the exclusive club? Well certainly if the owners authorised a massive spending spree, yes, but of course that is not the plan. Cortese's vision is to run the club on a business footing and being forward the youth players. I wonder if he just feels that the whole house of cards is bound to fall shortly and we will be in a position to sweep all before us? Perhaps we can achieve a top 8 finish whilst waiting for football to go into meltdown? All through history, clubs have had their moments of greatness and then sunk without trace usually due to the business side not being controlled properly. It is not fanciful to believe that we could get close but until the chickens come home to roost it will be difficult to compete with the unlimited resources which are poured into the black hole which is Football.
 
jenthesaint1990 said:
not when youve spent as much money as we have!
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No offense Jen, as you're not the only one to have said this, but it annoys me when people say that we have spent vastly more than others or generally loads of money. To me this is short sighted, as yes we may well have done this season, but taking into account the past couple of seasons then we haven't so much. For example (and I don't have exact figures so am happy to be put in my place if someone has info to prove otherwise), when promoted from L1 to Championship we did not spend much money or bring in many new players. Many times last season it was commented that we were effectively using the same team as we did in L1. And while money has been spent this summer it has been on a select few players, and still the core of the team is the same as the previous year in the Championship and thus very similar to that from L1.

Therefore I prepose this question to anyone who claims we have spent loads of money... take any of the top couple of L1 teams (I know we had a very good team, but still)... spend £25-30mil on that squad (roughly what we've spent this summer)... do you expect it to survive in the Prem?

I'm sure not many would (I know we haven't yet either, but I'm feeling optimistic). Plus, consider our wage bill, compared to the likes of QPR/Newcastle I can't see us being close to spending as much as them on wages.

Anyways, rant over :) looking forward to the game Wednesday!
 
PompeyLapras said:
I think the the comment about Nic having ideas above his station is referring not to his desire for Southampton to break into the top 8 or 6 or whatever, but rather the fact that he seems to be expecting it straight away which is above the station of any promoted club who should really be aiming to stay up first and foremost. Anything else probably is above their station.
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Show me where he says straight away for top 6?
 
Nicola said when you make up your mind it is the right time to act. I don't suppose he thinks there will be a big difference in league position this year...but he has given Mauriccio a few months to get used to the PL and have a clean run next season after a good preseason. I thought that Adkins should have been given this whole season, but am coming round to the thinking behind Cortese's decision. The shock would have been just as great in the summer, Poch may not have been available (the one Nicola called a perfect match), and no real game time to learn about the league and players.
 
Article in the Guardian. Seems MPs are getting concerned at the way football operates in a fantasy financial world and may be ready to legislate to prevent another Pompey scenario.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/jan/29/english-football-mps-threaten-reform
 
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