Is Jenson Button Elite?
- Thread starter Kyle?
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Oh dear, we have a thing within our midst… What a shame the world is full of such garbage.
why was damon hill booted out of williams in '97?
surely you don't get rid of the world champion?
never knew the reason's for that
someone care to enlighten me
why was damon hill booted out of williams in '97?
surely you don't get rid of the world champion?
never knew the reason's for that
someone care to enlighten me
If I remember it correctly, I think he was asking "too much" money after he won his WDC.
I wouldn't describe JB as an "elite driver". The general feeling when Honda pulled out was that he was a decent driver but nothing special, he's upped his game since then and I think being so close to a forced retirement has made him appreciate how lucky he is and he's putting a lot more effort in, he used to be regarded as a bit of a playboy.
I think Button is the best wheel-to-wheel racer on the grid, but he lacks raw pace. Outright speed is one of the fundamental aspects of being a great driver, so personally I could never consider JB among the elite. I really like the guy though, and he's been fantastic this season, I hope he can maintain his form through the rest of his career because he really is exceptional when he's form.
I think Button is the best wheel-to-wheel racer on the grid, but he lacks raw pace. Outright speed is one of the fundamental aspects of being a great driver, so personally I could never consider JB among the elite. I really like the guy though, and he's been fantastic this season, I hope he can maintain his form through the rest of his career because he really is exceptional when he's form.
I do not think he lacks raw pace or outright speed, I just think it is harder to access for him because of his biggest weakness at not being able to drive around a poorly setup/balanced car; when he has got the car setup to his liking then I do think he can be as fast as any other driver on the grid, he just has a smaller operating window.
Frank Williams had already signed Heinz-Harald Frentzen in 1995 to drive for the team in 1997 when his Sauber contract ran out. That was a reflection on Hill's apparent inability to cope with the pressure of the title fight in his accidents with Schumacher in Britain, Italy and his crash at Nurburgrin, though in reality his drives through most the year were very good, it was his equipment that let him down on many occasions.
As far as I am aware there was nothing to do with money as Hill never got the chance to renegotiate his contract!
History showed Frank made the wrong decision!
But in a perfect car wouldn't you think Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton/(Maybe) Kubica would be quicker?
If you put Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Button identical cars, I don't think Button would look particularly out of place. So yes, in the current field he's an elite driver.
I would put my predictions in that order you put them though. He's a bit unlike every other driver. He's in my opinion not as good as the top 3 (4 if Kubica was back) but better than everyone else.
Except he is in an identical car to hamilton and that isnt going to badly.
Basically on his day he can beat his quicker team mate. Massa and Webber outqualify Alonso and Vettel from time to time, but they're not as quick, they just hook it up now and then. Button's a poor qualifier, and his strengths don't outweigh this enough for me to consider him in the same bracket as Alonso and Vettel.
In comparison to Hamilton. Button is a poor qualifier. Recently he has been about a tenth slower. Compared to everyone else bar Vettel he is fantastic.
It not all about quali though, at times this season he has had searing pace in the race such as in Canada, Monaco, Spa. Plus like JC has said Button is usually only a tenth or so slower than Hamilton (which is much less than what Massa or Webber usually are against Alonso and Vettel) who is a very good qualifier; surely that makes Button a good qualifier?
Frank Williams was never one to pay his drivers much compared to other team owners.
Villeneuve thought he was good enough to start up his own team at BAR in 1999, not sure if that was as a result of a contract dispute with Williams or not. By then Williams had dropped to the midfield anyway, so if he had asked for lots of money he would have been told where to go!
Williams had their biggest falling outs with Mansell when it came to money, yet they held him in such high regard as a driver they brought him back twice. Think Patrick Head once openly said about him 'A bloody good driver, but a royal pain in the ass!'
why was damon hill booted out of williams in '97?
surely you don't get rid of the world champion?
never knew the reason's for that
someone care to enlighten me
Sam: that's a great question…
Frank Williams had decided that he "needed a 'Schumacher' to beat a Schumacher" after the dastardly Adelaide incident which robbed Hill of his first World Championship - which neither he nor the team protested in light of more important matters; i.e. facing manslaughter charges over Senna's death.
Rumour has it that as early as the start of 1995, he had already lined up Frentzen (perhaps even signed the contract), to whom Williams apparently gave credence for reports that he was widely regarded as faster than Dick Dastardly; concluding that this was the man for the job to replace Hill at the end of his contract, which ran through to the end of the 1996 season; but that he had made these arrangements without seeking the approval of co-founder of the 'Williams' team: Patrick Head.
Although still comfortably out-scoring team-mate David Coulthard by over 40% more points, by his own admission, Hill's '95 campaign was not his best and Frank's mind was apparently already made up (there are suggestions that Frentzen's contract was in fact already signed). During '96, it was clear that Hill was unquestionably world class; and in spite of scarcely believable rumours, he felt that "all he needed to do" to retain his drive was to win the World Drivers' Championship: simplicity itself for a man with such inner belief! It is said that as the season unfolded, Wrank Filliams began to see he'd underestimated his hard-working and determined leading driver but Frentzen was already a done deal. With a third of the season still left to run and in the midst of his epic battle, Williams cruelly broke the news to Damon Hill - who said that he felt he was the very last person to find out!
This messy ordeal, and the manner in which it was conducted, almost saw Patrick Head splitting with his business partner: a man he thought he'd known better. Through similar disbelief, a great many of the team's top people took up employment elsewhere. These were people who'd worked with Hill and had been in awe of his development work and unmatched technical feedback. On top of this, they had come to see a real world class racer emerge from the double trouble of '94, who'd courageously dealt with the Senna aftermath and overcome the repeated insults of Schumacher M.
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Wrank (now Sir Frank) has since admitted that it was probably his worst single decision in motor racing. Indeed, there is no more defining moment for what was to become the start of the team's slide to obscurity. In '97, Villeneuve simply inherited the masterpiece of the Hill team effort and his attempt to lead continued development of it fell apart at the seams. He simply couldn't do what Hill could, and the young Villeneuve faded away*.
In spite of all this, Damon Hill kept his dignity throughout. He's a proper bloke…
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*By contrast, Hill had made his F1 début a couple of months before his 32nd Birthday!
If I were to split the drivers into 4 tiers, Button would be in the top tier. In that sense, he is "elite". However, if he was in the same car as Vettel or Alonso, I think he would struggle to beat them.
i don't think he would struggle
His dominance until Silverstone 2009 when Brawn stopped major development proved he can dominate in a superior car like vettel
plus he is beating Hamilton this year despite the fact he must have lost about 25 points this year due to cock ups by mclaren
if button goes to Ferrari in 2013, i can see him matching Alonso, even beating him