Is Jenson Button Elite?

[SgtBhaji]

In response to those moaning about me generalising everyone, all i see is people saying button is nowhere near as good as hamilton. Don't have a go at me when i point it out, bunch of bloody hypocrites.

"We" does include eveybody, and though a good percentage have questioned Button's ability... not all have.

Personally, I was a bit unsure if he could keep up with Hamilton when he joined McLaren, my wife however, was convinced he'd be better (she's a Button and Schuey fan). I didn't doubt his ability but I personally felt Hamilton was light years ahead of him. Some could say that tyres have helped level the playing field between the two... but as anything in F1, each driver has to cope with the current regs and point system the same as any other driver... so to me, that one is moot. The only defence Hammy has right now is that he's not at the top if his game... but I'm not convinced that's a valid excuse either.

Button is in great form... good on him.

 

[Kyle?]

I'm not "having a go at you" Cowboy! Why on earth do you think that? I'm just saying that I am at odds with the generalisation you made! For that matter, I got the impression this was exactly what Mephisto was saying.

Don't take it personally. It is unfortunate that you seem so quick to react with insults such as "bunch of bloody hypocrites". Your comment was reasonable until that; particularly when neither of us are being hypocritical! When you see something you don't like, try what others often do: take a chill pill and consider the bigger picture…

I'm sorry, i just don't like my judgement being questioned. it's one of my biggest faults.

 

[Kyle?]

Right, i've changed "we" to "many". Happy now?

 

[cosicave]

Right, i've changed "we" to "many". Happy now?

Much better!
"Many" is quite a reasonable statement, whereas "we" suggests that you are speaking for everyone, rather than offering a topic for debate.

It's worth thinking before you type isn't it?!

 

[ErnieBecclestone]

Well, judging from what I've seen at the weekend I would simply say all world champion F1 drivers are in the elite brigade. Reason being I just seen Brundle and Berger driving at Goodwood, both were never WDCs but their lines, smoothness were visibly better than anyone else and they were on the gas pedal earlier, one can only assume that WDCs would be even better.

 

[cosicave]

Ernie: Given the right car at the right time, Brundle could have become an F1 Champ in my opinion. Brundle gave Schumacher a very hard time until things were (ahem) altered for one driver. He has also been pretty much the quickest and most consistent driver at Le Mans whenever he's entered - which is no mean feat. He was always very quick - and in truth still is!

Nice to see his efforts appreciated here.

 

[ErnieBecclestone]

cosi, I'm sure you are correct concerning Brundles F1 career, it was clearly compromised somewhat it's true by Schumachers mafia, but Brundle never exhibits animosity concerning this issue does he and that's a credit to the man.

He has this very quick smooth style which evidenced itself throughout the weekend, particularily during qualifying for his class, his Ferrari looked like it was running on rails.

 

[mephistopheles]

"We" does include eveybody, and though a good percentage have questioned Button's ability... not all have.

Personally, I was a bit unsure if he could keep up with Hamilton when he joined McLaren, my wife however, was convinced he'd be better (she's a Button and Schuey fan). I didn't doubt his ability but I personally felt Hamilton was light years ahead of him. Some could say that tyres have helped level the playing field between the two... but as anything in F1, each driver has to cope with the current regs and point system the same as any other driver... so to me, that one is moot. The only defence Hammy has right now is that he's not at the top if his game... but I'm not convinced that's a valid excuse either.

Button is in great form... good on him.

Your wife has exquisite taste, I must say

 

[Kyle?]

Ernie: Given the right car at the right time, Brundle could have become an F1 Champ in my opinion. Brundle gave Schumacher a very hard time until things were (ahem) altered for one driver. He has also been pretty much the quickest and most consistent driver at Le Mans whenever he's entered - which is no mean feat. He was always very quick - and in truth still is!

Nice to see his efforts appreciated here.

Wasn't brundle supposed to get the 1993 williams drive, instead of Hill? By that logic, brundle would have been 1996 world champion.

 

[mephistopheles]

Wasn't brundle supposed to get the 1993 williams drive, instead of Hill? By that logic, brundle would have been 1996 world champion.

I've never heard that I thought Hill was given the drive because he was their test driver at the time Although Brundle was in the running as was Mika Hakkinen, Sir Frank Williams has never been known to go for the easy option as he believes it is the car that wins championships and not the driver, much like Colin chapman used to.

A driver is like a lightbulb you plug it in and it does the job.

Those are not my words....

 

[cosicave]

I've never heard that I thought Hill was given the drive because he was their test driver at the time Although Brundle was in the running as was Mika Hakkinen, Sir Frank Williams has never been known to go for the easy option as he believes it is the car that wins championships and not the driver, much like Colin chapman used to.

A driver is like a lightbulb you plug it in and it does the job.

Those are not my words....

True.
It is a shame that this is Sir Frank's philosophy, but it should not be surprising that he wanted (and still wants) to emphasise his own contribution to his team's success.

But I also agree with the decision to go with Damon Hill in this instance; not through any lack of ability of Brundle or Hakkinen; but that Hill knew the car inside out (he'd developed it almost single-handedly as a driver) and was already exceptionally quick!

Hill should not be under-estimated. I think it is a great shame that so many seem so willing to see him as Sir Frank hoped: that he owed his title entirely to the car - which of course Hill had himself developed over many years!

 

[mephistopheles]

Absolutely cosi nothing and nobody will ever convince me that Hill wasn't anything but a magnificently talented driver. well within the top 10 drivers ever to don a helmet.

 

[Kyle?]

True.
It is a shame that this is Sir Frank's philosophy, but it should not be surprising that he wanted (and still wants) to emphasise his own contribution to his team's success.

But I also agree with the decision to go with Damon Hill in this instance; not through any lack of ability of Brundle or Hakkinen; but that Hill knew the car inside out (he'd developed it almost single-handedly as a driver) and was already exceptionally quick!

Hill should not be under-estimated. I think it is a great shame that so many seem so willing to see him as Sir Frank hoped: that he owed his title entirely to the car - which of course Hill had himself developed over many years!

I would never discredit Damon's 1996 title. He deserved it, he deserved the 1994 title too (bloody Schumacher), and was unfairly booted out of williams, where he probably would have won the 1997 title as well. He was a good driver, and a great development driver. And a really nice bloke too. Sir Damon anyone?

 

[Kyle?]

Absolutely cosi nothing and nobody will ever convince me that Hill wasn't anything but a magnificently talented driver. well within the top 10 drivers ever to don a helmet.

Hill is a bit like Button, in the fact that he was massively under appreciated, and the car was always credited for his success, much like Button in 09. As Cosi said, Hill helped make the car that good, he deserved to reap the rewards.

 

[mephistopheles]

Hill is a bit like Button, in the fact that he was massively under appreciated, and the car was always credited for his success, much like Button in 09. As Cosi said, Hill helped make the car that good, he deserved to reap the rewards.

That is why I choose Button as a driver to follow once Damon retired. it has been a long journey with him but it has been well worth it.

 

[SgtBhaji]

I could really hug you guys... After years of hearing people discredit Hill's title... It's bloody nice to see people backing him.

'94 was a messed up year, but Hill showed how tough he was in being able to take that car, make himself team leader and almost take the title in his second season. It can't have been easy to do that in the circumstance.

And yes... He should have been world champ in '97 had he not been tossed aside. His drive in Hungary in the Arrows is one of my favorite of all time. I'm all for Sir Damon Hill!!!

 

[mephistopheles]

Hill's Hungary drive was sublime I still have the tape although not a player to watch it on, also his win for Jordan at spa 98 superb. just like Jenson's Canadian drive.

 

[Kyle?]

Hill's Hungary drive was sublime I still have the tape although not a player to watch it on, also his win for Jordan at spa 98 superb. just like Jenson's Canadian drive.

Hill's hungarian drive has to go down as one of the all time greats. Keeping one of the best f1 cars ever made behind him for the majority of the race, whilst driving an arrows, shows the guy had talent.

 

[Basil_Brushzenberger]

Formula One is the elite, especially these days. The whole idea that some drivers are somehow head and shoulders above the rest is a complete and utter myth. It's not all about pace either. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel (I mention these because many other people have, not because I think they are "elite" drivers) all have their weaknesses, just as all the rest of the drivers on the grid do. Button has his weaknesses and he has strengths at which he is the best on the grid. This season he has stuck some immense overtaking moves on the best drivers on the grid while his overhyped team-mate has crashed all over the place. It seems to me the question of who is in the "elite" is all down to marketing, hype, and the credulity of the bovine watching public.

Does anyone pretend that Jaques Villeneuve is an "elite driver"? No. Same with Vettel.

 

[cosicave]

I've emboldened the bit which I believe is important. Most of the public are 'persuaded' to think a certain way about certain drivers, since they are not themselves experts. Thus there is an inevitability about the public consensus being the result of 'hype'.

You've compared two drivers in your final sentence Basil: well, I would suggest Vettel is beginning to emerge as one of the élite. But those who know me will probably anticipate my final sentence on the subject of 'hype'… The greatest beneficiary of all is none other than Michael Schumacher, whose many years of recklessness and underhand tactics were fully backed by first one then another Team Principal; the owner of F1 himself; and the most influential figure within the sport's governing body! - And very few pass-dependant journalists are likely to upset the apple-cart, being well-fed and watered (literally).

Make of that what you will Manny… Oh hang on, you're not reading this so I'm safe aren't I !