Off Topic International Break Thread

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vimhawk said:
Getting the right punishment is much more complex than it seems. For example it has to be punishment that is seen as punishment by those receiving it. For all we know it might be seen as some kind of perverse badge of honour. We assume these racists will be affected by the punishment - you've got to be careful when assuming that everyone thinks the same way. Other problems are
> punishing people that have nothing to do with the problem
> just moving the problem somewhere else
> if you punish people that believe in what they are saying/doing then you could be simply reinforcing those beliefs
> how does the punishment change people's mind about their behaviour

If the punishment doesn't change someone's attitude then it is not much more than making us feel better. There is certainly some merit in that, particularly to those directly affected, but it doesn't do much to prevent repeat problems later on.

We all apply our own value systems to such situations and assume that punishment we would not want, they would not want either. This is not necessarily true. Find out what they don't want to happen to them, and work out what would actually stop this happening again.
Click to expand...
We do know what works because we have the South African example. All our protestations fell on deaf ears bur as soon as we banned South Africa from world sport they paid attention. We can simply do the same, ban Hungary from all world competitive sports. We all know the power of sport to nations and in particular to their politicians. Look at what happened in England when the national team reached the final. Sport is important because it moves people. Fines are meaningless because individuals don't pay them. Who feels any pain if the FA are fined or even your own club what difference would it make if Spurs were fined a few million pounds for example? Who would feel it? Keeping Hungary in the competitions even behind closed doors will make no difference, all it does is protect the power base of UEFA and FIFA. They were quick to ban English clubs from Euro competition in the 70's and it worked, the violence was taken seriously and measures were put in place that in the end worked. Racists will not go away but they can be suppressed and ostracised . It's time to take proper action.
 
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vimhawk said:
Getting the right punishment is much more complex than it seems. For example it has to be punishment that is seen as punishment by those receiving it. For all we know it might be seen as some kind of perverse badge of honour. We assume these racists will be affected by the punishment - you've got to be careful when assuming that everyone thinks the same way. Other problems are
> punishing people that have nothing to do with the problem
> just moving the problem somewhere else
> if you punish people that believe in what they are saying/doing then you could be simply reinforcing those beliefs
> how does the punishment change people's mind about their behaviour

If the punishment doesn't change someone's attitude then it is not much more than making us feel better. There is certainly some merit in that, particularly to those directly affected, but it doesn't do much to prevent repeat problems later on.

We all apply our own value systems to such situations and assume that punishment we would not want, they would not want either. This is not necessarily true. Find out what they don't want to happen to them, and work out what would actually stop this happening again.
Click to expand...
Here's the issue: UEFA have punished Hungary by mandating them with a number of behind closed doors games - but this match was under FIFA's jurisdiction, which somehow means UEFA's punishment wasn't valid

On the plus side, this potentially means FIFA and UEFA have their heads banged together and
a.) Sort out this obvious discrepancy
b.) Mete out a heavier punishment
 
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Some kind of suspended ban should be the next step. Give the authorities a little leeway to get it under control and then impose the ban the second they reoffend. The Hungarian FA should have already taken this seriously but as they haven't, give them an incentive.
 
vimhawk said:
Getting the right punishment is much more complex than it seems. For example it has to be punishment that is seen as punishment by those receiving it. For all we know it might be seen as some kind of perverse badge of honour. We assume these racists will be affected by the punishment - you've got to be careful when assuming that everyone thinks the same way. Other problems are
> punishing people that have nothing to do with the problem
> just moving the problem somewhere else
> if you punish people that believe in what they are saying/doing then you could be simply reinforcing those beliefs
> how does the punishment change people's mind about their behaviour

If the punishment doesn't change someone's attitude then it is not much more than making us feel better. There is certainly some merit in that, particularly to those directly affected, but it doesn't do much to prevent repeat problems later on.

We all apply our own value systems to such situations and assume that punishment we would not want, they would not want either. This is not necessarily true. Find out what they don't want to happen to them, and work out what would actually stop this happening again.
Click to expand...
Fair points, but then in which case what 'punishments' are appropriate.
Hungarian 'values' would generally be considered mainstream. This isn't a new problem however and education appears to have no effect.
Exclusion and Draconian financial penalties may be seen as a badge of honour by hard-line racists, but the national reaction may well be somewhat different.

But as I say. What are the options?
 
England highlights, for anyone that didn't bother:
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Not sure this was a great idea:
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Not because it wound up the racist, but because it's not very hygienic, especially at the moment.
 
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I wonder if there'll be any overlap in the training?
Be nice for some of those players to see what proper training facilities look like, anyway. <whistle>
 
Left on the Shelf said:
Fair points, but then in which case what 'punishments' are appropriate.
Hungarian 'values' would generally be considered mainstream. This isn't a new problem however and education appears to have no effect.
Exclusion and Draconian financial penalties may be seen as a badge of honour by hard-line racists, but the national reaction may well be somewhat different.

But as I say. What are the options?
Click to expand...

I don't know enough about Hungary to be sure. That's why people with local expertise should be involved. Not sure that stadium bans are the answer though, since technically Hungary already has a stadium ban from UEFA after the fans behaviour at the Euros, which ludicrously wasn't in force for this match (which was of course a FIFA match). At the very least these organisations need to liaise over the bans, and if there is any good that comes of the situation, perhaps that will happen (though I'm not hopeful). Having said that the fans were not deterred were they. Perhaps what Spurf said earlier about something akin to what was done to South Africa is the only option? But could that happen today - there always seem to be an 'out' via the Court of Arbitration for Sport, and the next think you'll have is a team of Hungarian nationals not actually representing Hungary but still playing in the World Cup, accompanied with music by Liszt.
 
I hate these international breaks - just when the PL got up and running.
Even more so with all this racist nastiness.
Roll on 11th September- CR7 debut, even more mass jealousy and resentment :emoticon-0138-think:emoticon-0137-clapp<devil><monster>
 
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