Meanwhile, in Australia, the phrase "****ing hell" definitely needs an airing...
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Off Topic International Break Thread
- Thread starter PleaseNotPoll
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Players winning the league doesnt make them top class. Sure theres a lot of potential in some of them and they are solid players but i could do this:
Euro 2016 team is better player for player:
Joe Hart - PL winning Keeper
Kyle Walker - Younger, fitter, faster Kyle Walker
Gary Cahill - PL Winner
John Stones - PL Winner
Danny Rose - World Class full back back then (according to my spurs mates)
Dele Alli - Valued at 100m world class
Eric Dier - Better than Phillips back then, linked with 50m move to united
Wayne Rooney - CL And PL Winner
Lallana - Very good winger
Sterling - PL winner
Kane - It's Harry
It was like a parable: if you try really hard not to lose, you can postpone losing almost indefinitely.
I thought England were the natural team to beat Italy. Italy like to have lots of the ball and attack through the middle. England like to clog the middle and counterattack at speed...or, rather, that's what they can do best. What they actually do for the most part is possess toothlessly or defend desperately. I thought the lineup would have been perfect if Southgate had played Grealish instead of Mount--if they had kept countering quickly, to give Italy something to worry about. I guess I've missed something, but I absolutely don't rate Mount. He certainly wasn't any good last night, and Henderson was even worse.
Southgate can say with some justice that a semi and a final amount to a job well done, overall. My antipathy is stylistic. I think that you ought to always take a chance and try to do things bravely. You'll fail in the end no matter what you do, so you may as well give it a go.
The first person who jumped on a horse looked like the stupidest prick in the history of the universe, and ended up with nothing to show for it but bruises and derision. But that person may be responsible for more than half the world speaking Indo-European languages.
I agree that dumb luck is an underrated aspect of most sports, and since football is ruled by a handful of low probability events, it's chancier than most. But Casey Stengel, who was the best and worst manager in the history of baseball, had a phrase which summed up outcomes like last night perfectly, for me: "Luck is the residue of design." One manager and team acted like they should win, and one manager and team acted like they could win.
England's player of the tournament was Pickford, I think (though I never rated him before, and may not again). Southgate's tactics amounted to hoping Pickford could win the Euros for him, and he played so well that he very, very nearly did.
I thought England were the natural team to beat Italy. Italy like to have lots of the ball and attack through the middle. England like to clog the middle and counterattack at speed...or, rather, that's what they can do best. What they actually do for the most part is possess toothlessly or defend desperately. I thought the lineup would have been perfect if Southgate had played Grealish instead of Mount--if they had kept countering quickly, to give Italy something to worry about. I guess I've missed something, but I absolutely don't rate Mount. He certainly wasn't any good last night, and Henderson was even worse.
Southgate can say with some justice that a semi and a final amount to a job well done, overall. My antipathy is stylistic. I think that you ought to always take a chance and try to do things bravely. You'll fail in the end no matter what you do, so you may as well give it a go.
The first person who jumped on a horse looked like the stupidest prick in the history of the universe, and ended up with nothing to show for it but bruises and derision. But that person may be responsible for more than half the world speaking Indo-European languages.
I agree that dumb luck is an underrated aspect of most sports, and since football is ruled by a handful of low probability events, it's chancier than most. But Casey Stengel, who was the best and worst manager in the history of baseball, had a phrase which summed up outcomes like last night perfectly, for me: "Luck is the residue of design." One manager and team acted like they should win, and one manager and team acted like they could win.
England's player of the tournament was Pickford, I think (though I never rated him before, and may not again). Southgate's tactics amounted to hoping Pickford could win the Euros for him, and he played so well that he very, very nearly did.
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No you’re right it don’t but it shows their pedigree that they’re playing in winning sides, especially as some are still so young in the game.
I disagree there though, I think this team beats the team of 2016.
Cahill finished 10th that season with your lot and Rooney was on the slide too. Dele’s never performed for England either (albeit granted back then we couldn’t have known) and Lallana was never better than just being a “good player”. I’d also say Pickford for England has been better than Hart for England, weird because he’s bang average for Everton but he’s a different beast for country. Rice is probably better than what Dier was back then, albeit I did really like Dier. Stones is better now than he was back then, Sterling didn’t have the best of seasons but I’d say he’s also a better player now than back then.
Pickford's similar to Darius Vassell: at club level he rarely stands out, but at international level he's like a completely different player
But for some reason nobody ever seems to suggest that if he wants to Win Things™ he needs to move to someone other than Everton...
I’m still not over it, tbh. It was the latter part of the first half and the second half until the system change that really killed us. Whether it was a tactical decision to completely surrender the ball, whether the players got nerves and dropped off, or whether Italy were just too good at controlling the game, we won’t know for a while and perhaps never will. I think for the first 15 mins of the second half we had something like 29% possession. That killed us mentally and physically.
Southgate reacted too slowly there though and I also think he made mistakes with the subs for the penalty takers. Rashford I understand but I don’t think Sancho takes them with any regularity. Southgate got nearly everything right this tournament but not with yesterday’s game.
This is a superb Italy team though and they are well deserved winners of the tournament.
Edit: with the late subs as well, I think it’s worth noting that we tried to get them on with 5 mins or so to go but the ball stayed in play for so long that we didn’t get the chance to actually make the subs until right at the end. I remember thinking at the time that this might be impactful because neither of them really had the chance to get a few touches and get the blood pumping before the shootout. Not a lot Southgate could do about this though as Italy had the ball.
Southgate reacted too slowly there though and I also think he made mistakes with the subs for the penalty takers. Rashford I understand but I don’t think Sancho takes them with any regularity. Southgate got nearly everything right this tournament but not with yesterday’s game.
This is a superb Italy team though and they are well deserved winners of the tournament.
Edit: with the late subs as well, I think it’s worth noting that we tried to get them on with 5 mins or so to go but the ball stayed in play for so long that we didn’t get the chance to actually make the subs until right at the end. I remember thinking at the time that this might be impactful because neither of them really had the chance to get a few touches and get the blood pumping before the shootout. Not a lot Southgate could do about this though as Italy had the ball.
Maybe thats cause southgate allows the players to be players. Maybe alli would be a beast if southgate was in charge. All ifs and buts but if a player is a monster at internationals maybe thats down to the manager?
As for euro 2016, i think its a far worse side than the one we have now. I was just showing what using tags of winners etc can do
The judgement is about whether to put pressure on opponents by scoring the early ones or have your weaker takers under more pressure at the end. If the weaker players are more likely to score going first you get the best of both worlds by them going first. If the Portugal takers missed under minimal pressure, why would they have scored under greater pressure at the end?
Considering the other takers were Moutinho, Alves, Pepe and Nani (Moutinho and Alves missed) and that Spain were taking first, the most likely explanation in that scenario was that Ronaldo wanted the glory for himself in scoring the winning penalty so was destined to look a bit of a tit one way or another
This is what I thought at the time re. Ronaldo. He wanted the glory shot.
In reality you never want your best takers going after 3rd because there’s no guarantee they’ll get to take one. Most teams have a couple of players in the starting XI who could be said to be specialists (Kane and Son for example), and then others who can step up, subs who might take pens when they’re starting second string games etc.
I think the order yesterday for the first 3 England pens was spot on. I think you want your best taker up first and another solid bet (Rashford, though he missed) up 3rd. 2nd you can take a bit more of a gamble - Maguire was a good choice, he’s a calm head, a leader, and CBs often make good penalty takers because they can generate so much power. The next two did surprise me though. Grealish seems like the kind of hyper-confident player who is built for that kind of occasion, we know he wanted to take one as well so I don’t know why Sancho was picked to take one when he’d barely kicked a ball and to my knowledge doesn’t take them regularly at any level. I can understand Saka taking one because he’s had a really good tournament and would have been full of confidence, but Sterling has more experience and was also on a high. I’m surprised that call was made too. Hell, I’d have backed Pickford to take one ahead of either of those two, he did against Switzerland in the Nations League.
His was my favourite. I guess you run the risk of blazing it over by hitting it that hard but one thing’s for sure, a keeper is never saving that when it is on target - which his was.
No messing about, run up and punt the ****er. That’s how I wish all penalties are taken. These little stuttered run ups followed with weakly hit shots just double the risk of a keeper saving it in my opinion, if you punt it then even if the keeper does manage to get a hand on it there’s still a good chance the force of the ball is still too strong to actually keep it out.
When it comes to England though I ****ing love slabhead, probably my second favourite player for the country after Kane. Hope he has a **** season for Utd though
His was my favourite. I guess you run the risk of blazing it over by hitting it that hard but one thing’s for sure, a keeper is never saving that when it is on target - which his was.
No messing about, run up and punt the ****er. That’s how I wish all penalties are taken. These little stuttered run ups followed with weakly hit shots just double the risk of a keeper saving it in my opinion, if you punt it then even if the keeper does manage to get a hand on it there’s still a good chance the force of the ball is still too strong to actually keep it out.
When it comes to England though I ****ing love slabhead, probably my second favourite player for the country after Kane. Hope he has a **** season for Utd though
Yeah I love him for England, same as Pickford. Both players who seem to step it up a level every time they put on the shirt.
Was Walker eligible for pens, we know he has the power and I think he was a contender for our player of the tournament
Wasn’t on the pitch. Rashford replaced him. Tbh as good as Walker has been all tournament I just don’t have a good feeling with him when it comes to pens.
I suspect that if he was on the pitch, Tripper would have been #2 or #3 penalty taker. He's pretty good at set pieces. Also, for all his loss of form, and the minor point that he doesn't play for England anymore, Dier is a very reliable penalty taker. Not sure why Sterling was on the pitch at the end if he wasn't going to take a pen. It's not my usual Sterling rant, it's just that if they were trying to get Sancho and Rashford on to take pens earlier than they did, we would have had to play several minutes more with a really weird formation having taken off two defensive players. Would have made more sense to take off Sterling. Anyway, Sancho will probably get more practice taking pens next season since he's a ManU player now.
Saka was a bad call IMHO.
No criticism of the lad who as you say had a really good tournament, but he had looked out of his depth coming on yesterday - and all that confidence seemed to drain from him.
Grealish, Sterling, Shaw or Stones should have stepped up for that must-score one.
But that's down to Southgate as he honestly admitted.
My musings on the campaign ...
1. Consistency/quality of the "6 yard box" crosses
As evinced by the number of goals scored via them.
2. Sterling
Had left a lot to be desired up to now, but delivered some of
his league form at last. Next step in his England progression is to
avoid believing his own publicity, and learn to play the percentages.
3. Shaw
All round performance.
Perhaps the potential lauded on him a few years ago will now become consistent reality.
4. Southgate
I consider him to be nothing more than a "safe pair of hands" manager
(for my generation harking back to the likes of Greenwood etc) ,
Croatia 2018 and Italy now IMHO shows his does not have the nous
to deal with teams of particular high MF quality, and he does not (yet)
have players in his squad who will produce those outrageous WTF
moments that break the deadlocks.
5. Overall
I am happy with the campaign.
I would summarise it as a typically 'England' style of play.
1. Consistency/quality of the "6 yard box" crosses
As evinced by the number of goals scored via them.
2. Sterling
Had left a lot to be desired up to now, but delivered some of
his league form at last. Next step in his England progression is to
avoid believing his own publicity, and learn to play the percentages.
3. Shaw
All round performance.
Perhaps the potential lauded on him a few years ago will now become consistent reality.
4. Southgate
I consider him to be nothing more than a "safe pair of hands" manager
(for my generation harking back to the likes of Greenwood etc) ,
Croatia 2018 and Italy now IMHO shows his does not have the nous
to deal with teams of particular high MF quality, and he does not (yet)
have players in his squad who will produce those outrageous WTF
moments that break the deadlocks.
5. Overall
I am happy with the campaign.
I would summarise it as a typically 'England' style of play.
On 1) I think you need to differentiate between 'crosses' ie hopeful balls into a crowded box and 'passes' where the wide player notices someone in lots of space and accurately finds him. Most of the goals were the latter. I think there were very few of the former which is probably due to coaching.My musings on the campaign ...
1. Consistency/quality of the "6 yard box" crosses
As evinced by the number of goals scored via them.
2. Sterling
Had left a lot to be desired up to now, but delivered some of
his league form at last. Next step in his England progression is to
avoid believing his own publicity, and learn to play the percentages.
3. Shaw
All round performance.
Perhaps the potential lauded on him a few years ago will now become consistent reality.
4. Southgate
I consider him to be nothing more than a "safe pair of hands" manager
(for my generation harking back to the likes of Greenwood etc) ,
Croatia 2018 and Italy now IMHO shows his does not have the nous
to deal with teams of particular high MF quality, and he does not (yet)
have players in his squad who will produce those outrageous WTF
moments that break the deadlocks.
5. Overall
I am happy with the campaign.
I would summarise it as a typically 'England' style of play.