Off Topic International Break Thread
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Hmm. Winning the whole thing is quite a high bar. And I would argue the opposite too in that he could have won and you still might be right.
Well i can only go by results, and a world cup semis and a euros final is pretty impressive.
Do i think England should be more expansive, certainly and i think we have the players to do it. you could argue he's been pretty lucky in terms of both the world cup and euros the only "decent" team we've beaten is Germany but you can only beat what is in front of you.
I say i think England could probably be more adventurous and more successful but for all you know, without playing rice and phillips in a rather deep line, we might have been run ragged and the likes of Maguire and stones who i don't think are very good when having to play a high line and run backwards could have been conceding left right and centre. Unfortunately we don't know.
Likewise, you have to give credit to southgate for blooding these players. we'd probably still have the likes of alli, henderson, vardy and other "experienced" players still slumming it around rather than all these young exciting players than southgate has called up and used during the tournament.
Yes southgate has been fortunate we have all these up and coming players but he's actually used them. Likewise, decent players do not guarantee a decent standing. Just look at Belgium who have a far better 11 than us imo but have done worse than us at each tournament and likewise France who have been knocked out by the swiss and even the Germans in the last 2 tournaments.
The only thing critical is the lack of control in the games which i think we should against the danes when we stroked it around but reverted to type against the italians.
As i repeat, team cohesion is probably one of the biggest factors in international football and defensive solidity, (i don't think we ahve seen a swashbuckling side like the brazilians win it in years, even decent attacking sides nowadays are very solid) and southgate has instilled both. As i say, you can't argue with the record of semis and finalists even if i think he has made mistakes. I would never have put our team or squad anywhere near the top sides in the world in either tournament and i don't even rate southgate as i think his club performances have a lot to be desired (but international footie and club footie are totally different)
They are taking penalties, they don't need to be up to speed with the game. You're trying to get too clever/complicated about that.
If it was as science related as you try to make out I'm sure our backroom staff will be ahead of the game more than anybody on here and would have been on to that.
It's not like they need to be up to speed with the actual game or to find their touch. It's a penalty that they had practiced for all week and they had fresh legs.
I agree with much of what's been written here about Southgate and it's true that it's easy to criticise after the event, but equally you can't be critical before hand as the outcome is not known.
He set up us to be hard to beat and we were, and the defensive players all came out of the tournament with their reputations enhanced.
But yesterday he got the set up spot on at the start, and the Italians were caught out initially. But by the midpoint in the first half they had worked us out and once they got on top they stayed there. We were unable to find a way to keep the ball once they were in there stride and in the 2nd half was deployed on his own up front to try and deal with whatever was hoofed up to him by Pickford and Maguire.
Mount was totally anonymous how he stayed on 98 minutes is beyond me. Maybe if Foden had been fit he would have been hooked sooner because the bottom line is that Gareth just isn't a fan of Grealish.
Rice was doing OK (and more for a while) his substitution for Henderson unfortunately didn't pan out how we wanted as Henderson never found the pace of the game (this can happen, one of those luck things that has been mentioned).
Finally the bringing on of Sancho and Rashford to just take penalties was a poor decision. Rashford was ready to come on at the start of the 2nd Half of extra time, so why wait, he is quick and if we knew that Sterling wasn't on pens he could have been taken off Rashford could have 15 mins running at the old Italian defenders with Kane sitting in behind him.
Overall I am delighted that we got to a final, somehow I don't feel as disappointed as I should maybe because I know that the better team on the night won, or maybe that's just the Spurs fan in me!
He set up us to be hard to beat and we were, and the defensive players all came out of the tournament with their reputations enhanced.
But yesterday he got the set up spot on at the start, and the Italians were caught out initially. But by the midpoint in the first half they had worked us out and once they got on top they stayed there. We were unable to find a way to keep the ball once they were in there stride and in the 2nd half was deployed on his own up front to try and deal with whatever was hoofed up to him by Pickford and Maguire.
Mount was totally anonymous how he stayed on 98 minutes is beyond me. Maybe if Foden had been fit he would have been hooked sooner because the bottom line is that Gareth just isn't a fan of Grealish.
Rice was doing OK (and more for a while) his substitution for Henderson unfortunately didn't pan out how we wanted as Henderson never found the pace of the game (this can happen, one of those luck things that has been mentioned).
Finally the bringing on of Sancho and Rashford to just take penalties was a poor decision. Rashford was ready to come on at the start of the 2nd Half of extra time, so why wait, he is quick and if we knew that Sterling wasn't on pens he could have been taken off Rashford could have 15 mins running at the old Italian defenders with Kane sitting in behind him.
Overall I am delighted that we got to a final, somehow I don't feel as disappointed as I should maybe because I know that the better team on the night won, or maybe that's just the Spurs fan in me!
That is the thing though, the only good team he’s beaten at both tournaments is Germany and as I said, that was also probably the worst German team in 10+ years whilst this is probably the best England team in about 15.
He’s lost twice to Belgium, lost to Croatia (WC) and lost to Italy, all of them in pretty much underwhelming fashion.
As for picking the players, he’d have been stupid not too, he’s only doing what should be done in that respect. Our clubs are producing top talents so it’s only natural the manager should end up picking them.
Defensive solidity is because he’s primarily playing either 5 at the back and/ or two DMs. Playing like that will always make you tough to beat but it then makes it harder to win.
I think this Euros we definitely had one of the best teams in terms of talent, we’ve got league winners, CL winners, a world class striker, great creative talent and some top prospects.
Interesting.
Is it right that he makes this public?
Perhaps Southgate had good reasons for not putting him in the first 5 takers.
Southgate wasn’t brave enough I’m afraid and it was embarrassing that many peoples player of the tournament and England hero of the early rounds, serial winner for jackpot City went into hiding when it was time to show some minerals in the penalty shootout. Can’t blame Saka after having witnessed the 2 poor attempts previously, that’s a lot of pressure for a kid to take on. Rashfords penalty was embarrassing and arrogant but ultimately it was a penalty that reeked of fear.
I don’t buy this ‘penalties is a lottery’ bollocks. It can’t be a lottery when it was a clear strategy to get to that stage considering he stuck Rashford/Sancho on with a minute to go. Plenty preparation has gone into that.
It’s not a case of we didn’t win so im complaining it’s the **** manner in which the game was dealt with as it progressed…like we were dying a slow death and it culminated in the shootout meltdown…like watching Spurs, I was left looking for someone to inspire the team.
I don’t buy this ‘penalties is a lottery’ bollocks. It can’t be a lottery when it was a clear strategy to get to that stage considering he stuck Rashford/Sancho on with a minute to go. Plenty preparation has gone into that.
It’s not a case of we didn’t win so im complaining it’s the **** manner in which the game was dealt with as it progressed…like we were dying a slow death and it culminated in the shootout meltdown…like watching Spurs, I was left looking for someone to inspire the team.
I think Southgate has said that he chose the 5 who took the best penalties in training - I think Grealish is just responding to people saying that he bottled it.
I generally agree but unfair to suggest that anyone went into hiding. They may have all wanted one and Southgate made the choice. I think Maguire and Kane should have been fourth and fifth in any case.
19 year old kid, it’s his turn to take the penalty, the 2 previous have just been missed. It’s on his shoulders to save the tournament for us. Serial winner and our group stage saviour should have grabbed that ball off him imo
Hard to say if Kane should’ve gone first or last. He’s England’s best penalty taker so I think there’s arguments for both sides.
Set the tone at the beginning or (hopefully) make the all important finish?
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter too much though.
I just wish the other three took their pens like how Kane and Maguire did. Both leathered the ball into separate corners. The others just didn’t hit them hard enough, if you’re not pelting a penalty I think you’re giving the keeper a bit more of a chance to save it, because even if the keepers goes the right way when a player has smashed one the force of the shot makes it harder to save.
Set the tone at the beginning or (hopefully) make the all important finish?
I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter too much though.
I just wish the other three took their pens like how Kane and Maguire did. Both leathered the ball into separate corners. The others just didn’t hit them hard enough, if you’re not pelting a penalty I think you’re giving the keeper a bit more of a chance to save it, because even if the keepers goes the right way when a player has smashed one the force of the shot makes it harder to save.
to be fair you are consistent mate
As for lucky draws, you are right but it's not Southgate's fault the big guns get knocked out of the tournament by the minnows before we get to play them.
It's the best squad we've had in donkeys but i don't think the first 11 is any great shakes. Pre tournament, i'd have had us level pegging with the italians, germans, portuguese, spanish and had the belgians and french favourites.
I'd have thought a final would be successful
World cup 2018 i can't really remember but again, if we made quarters then i'd have been happy.
It's in line with what i was expecting and i think you overrate our team too much.
Pickford - somehow he's pulling off saves and his mistakes (minus his kicking) haven't really been made although i think he's fairly average player generally
Maguire - Solid when he needs to header and just sit deep to wrestle players but otherwise okay
Stones - Okay, improved this year at City but i always thought was a bit of a liability
Shaw - really good
Walker - Really good
Rice - Really good player, would like him at Chelsea, he's not really
Phillips - Pre tournament, bang average but he's been really good and solid this tournament.
i'm getting bored but all our forwards and winger are all really good, and have the potential to be world class. Really only Harry Kane is someone who gets in every other national team and is a top top player and sterling is borderline that.
Even at it's worse, this German team could go pound for pound against our england team so i'm not sure using this is the best england team vs worse german team argument is a good one for me.
The fact that he took this bait, and so soon after the game, indicates either something is very wrong between him and Southgate, or Mr Grealish has a hell of a lot of growing up to do still. Truth be told, it's probably both.
to be fair you are consistent mate
As for lucky draws, you are right but it's not Southgate's fault the big guns get knocked out of the tournament by the minnows before we get to play them.
It's the best squad we've had in donkeys but i don't think the first 11 is any great shakes. Pre tournament, i'd have had us level pegging with the italians, germans, portuguese, spanish and had the belgians and french favourites.
I'd have thought a final would be successful
World cup 2018 i can't really remember but again, if we made quarters then i'd have been happy.
It's in line with what i was expecting and i think you overrate our team too much.
Pickford - somehow he's pulling off saves and his mistakes (minus his kicking) haven't really been made although i think he's fairly average player generally
Maguire - Solid when he needs to header and just sit deep to wrestle players but otherwise okay
Stones - Okay, improved this year at City but i always thought was a bit of a liability
Shaw - really good
Walker - Really good
Rice - Really good player, would like him at Chelsea, he's not really
Phillips - Pre tournament, bang average but he's been really good and solid this tournament.
i'm getting bored but all our forwards and winger are all really good, and have the potential to be world class. Really only Harry Kane is someone who gets in every other national team and is a top top player and sterling is borderline that.
Even at it's worse, this German team could go pound for pound against our england team so i'm not sure using this is the best england team vs worse german team argument is a good one for me.
Totally agree. I don't see how someone can look at the starting XI we had in the 'golden generation'...
James
Neville Ferdinand Terry Cole
Beckham Gerrard Lampard Scholes
Rooney Owen
And say with a straight face that the current XI can hold a candle to it.
The big difference is that Southgate has them all fighting for eachother and sets them up in a way that gets the most out of 6 outfield players.
Perhaps his single greatest failure has been failing to get the most out of the one player in the current team who would walk into that golden generation side.
The thing with saving your best to last is you end up looking really, really stupid if the shootout doesn't even go to five kicks, as happened to Portugal in Euro 2012 when Ronaldo was set to take the fifth kick in the shootout against Spain but Portugal never made it past the fourth - which is something they didn't repeat in 2016, where he took the first kick in their shootout against Poland
to be fair you are consistent mate
As for lucky draws, you are right but it's not Southgate's fault the big guns get knocked out of the tournament by the minnows before we get to play them.
It's the best squad we've had in donkeys but i don't think the first 11 is any great shakes. Pre tournament, i'd have had us level pegging with the italians, germans, portuguese, spanish and had the belgians and french favourites.
I'd have thought a final would be successful
World cup 2018 i can't really remember but again, if we made quarters then i'd have been happy.
It's in line with what i was expecting and i think you overrate our team too much.
Pickford - somehow he's pulling off saves and his mistakes (minus his kicking) haven't really been made although i think he's fairly average player generally
Maguire - Solid when he needs to header and just sit deep to wrestle players but otherwise okay
Stones - Okay, improved this year at City but i always thought was a bit of a liability
Shaw - really good
Walker - Really good
Rice - Really good player, would like him at Chelsea, he's not really
Phillips - Pre tournament, bang average but he's been really good and solid this tournament.
i'm getting bored but all our forwards and winger are all really good, and have the potential to be world class. Really only Harry Kane is someone who gets in every other national team and is a top top player and sterling is borderline that.
Even at it's worse, this German team could go pound for pound against our england team so i'm not sure using this is the best england team vs worse german team argument is a good one for me.
I don’t think I overrate the team.
Pickford at international level is unreal (weird but he is).
Walker/ Trippier have just won their leagues, James just won the CL.
Maguire is a very good CB.
Stones just won the league and probably had his best ever season to date.
Shaw just had his best ever season. Chilwell just won the CL.
Rice had a great season for West Ham and is constantly linked with a big money move.
Phillips I agree has had a good tournament despite being a surprise selection.
Mount just won the CL.
Sterling just won the league.
Kane is top two striker in world football.
Grealish, Foden (albeit injured for final) are quality creative players.
Saka and Sancho have very bright futures.
This team and a number of the squad are seriously good and many of them are experiencing success at club levels too.
It’s the best we’ve had since that “golden generation” and many don’t have the egos that lot had too. I do praise Southgate for that though, he’s created a good aura and vibe but ultimately as a manager/ coach you need to be tactically astute too and I just think he’s bland, unambitious and holding a lot of these players back.