At Wembley when he played against us the other year he was majestic, and though we lost that night, I came away pleased that not only had I seen Messi play, but I had seen him at his best.
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At Wembley when he played against us the other year he was majestic, and though we lost that night, I came away pleased that not only had I seen Messi play, but I had seen him at his best.
There's an argument to be had. Eusebio Beckenbauer probably half the 1970 Brazil team have a shout, but I stick by my 5.
I like you have only seen Best on TV, some of the clips are amazing, and whilst we know that youtube compilations of modern day footballers can be misleading some of the clips of Best and the praise he gets from his peers suggest that he was the real deal. As Spurf says comparing players from different eras is impossible, but it is worth remembering that people like Best & Cruyff played in an era when tackling was still allowed and maiming not discouraged. Pitches were also uneven and muddy, its likely that the likes of Messi & CR7 would have coped with this but that is not guaranteed.
It’s impossible to compare across eras, really. Advocates of the likes of Pele and Maradona rightly point out that modern sport science keeps modern players much fitter, that players are more protected from fouls (though you might be forgiven for not thinking that last night lol), pitches are better, and ball and boot technology has advanced to the point where the game can be played much faster.
On the other hand I think it’s fair to say that the fitness aspect also applies to the defenders that the top players have to score against, and that the game is overall much more professional all round - the gains a ‘true professional’ training to the max and living cleanly might have found in the 60s, 70s and 80s are much more marginal now, because most players don’t smoke and an awful lot don’t drink (especially during the season) now. The edge is harder to find. Training is also much more in depth and complex, as well as frankly the organisation of defences just being much better. Go and watch a show like Premier League Years and some of the defending you’ll see from the 90s and noughties even in the PL is frankly amateurish compared even to the poorer PL teams now, in terms of how the defenders move, their positioning, and the space they give even the top players. Though there are always visionaries in every era I think the basic standard of coaching is orders of magnitude better nowadays.
Ultimately I think the truly elite players - Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc - would be successful in any era they played in. Whether those a few rungs down, like a Sonny, would be as successful 60 years ago is up for debate, though.
On the other hand I think it’s fair to say that the fitness aspect also applies to the defenders that the top players have to score against, and that the game is overall much more professional all round - the gains a ‘true professional’ training to the max and living cleanly might have found in the 60s, 70s and 80s are much more marginal now, because most players don’t smoke and an awful lot don’t drink (especially during the season) now. The edge is harder to find. Training is also much more in depth and complex, as well as frankly the organisation of defences just being much better. Go and watch a show like Premier League Years and some of the defending you’ll see from the 90s and noughties even in the PL is frankly amateurish compared even to the poorer PL teams now, in terms of how the defenders move, their positioning, and the space they give even the top players. Though there are always visionaries in every era I think the basic standard of coaching is orders of magnitude better nowadays.
Ultimately I think the truly elite players - Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona etc - would be successful in any era they played in. Whether those a few rungs down, like a Sonny, would be as successful 60 years ago is up for debate, though.
Yes, good point I should have included Best. His career seemed so short and he missed lots of games so that's my excuse. Perhaps if he had the discipline of Harry Kane he would have been even better but he was a natural in every way. One of his skills that was always astounding was his ability to use the defender he was approaching as a wall and literally bounce the ball off him, collect the rebound and scoot past him before the defender realised what was happening. Bear in mind he was often doing this on a pitch that was largely mud. I would love to have seen him fully fitness honed and playing on today/s perfect pitches with the lighter ball. I think he just might have been the very best of all of them.
All his international career shows is that Messi is not the kind
of player who can single-handedly take meh teams by the
scruff of the neck and drive them on to victory after victory
in tournaments. No shame in that.
This is compounded even more by the fact that Maradona
(who did exactly this in 1986) is his countryman (so the
comparisons are always begging) .
We always talk about attackers until we remember that defending is a different art, maybe not so glamorous but just as skillful in a different way. My top 4 would be Maldini, Beresi, Bobby Moore and Franz Beckenbauer. but I would have to mention Ledley King and Paul McGrath but I am sure there are others and some of the current ones will certainly be up there.
The issues with Best were his image and lifestyle (which tend to overshadow a fair assessment of his ability) and the fact that he was effectively finished at 26.
So he doesn't have the longevity of any of the players mentioned.
Comparing him to the others means comparing him at his peak and not over the whole of his career, which drifted on until he was 37.
Between 1964 and 1972 his performances and stats stand up to scrutiny when compared against anyone.
As has been pointed out, he played in an era where he was often manhandled, hacked to the ground etc, where defenders doubled and even treble up on him, where pitches were often like paddy fields etc. His ability to go past people with either pace over a short distance or trickery on a regular basis and produce an end product in terms of many goals and assists was unsurpassed. He played in very good Utd teams during the '60s, but he wasn't always surrounded by very many good players - unlike to modern players, whose teams tend to have the best players in other positions, which makes their lives a lot easier.
He was quite small and lightly built, like Messi, but didn't get the protections modern day players so had to be strong and resilient. It would have been a cakewalk for him playing now when nobody would have dared to tackle him.
He dragged Argentina to the 2014 World Cup final, especially after Angel Di Maria got crocked during the tournament
Of course he might not have had to if he hasn't already started getting players blackballed from the Argentina squad, with Carlos Tevez and Mauro Icardi already getting that treatment by the 2014 World Cup
ITV showing the Italian Job this afternoon .
Nothing if not predictable.
Nothing if not predictable.
Though his achievement with this tournament is not comparable to Maradona, Messi has just finished joint top scorer and top of the assist charts at this Copa America and this Argentina team doesn’t have the star power that most of the national teams Messi has played in had. The starting XI was
Aston Villa, River Plate, PSG, Sevilla, Barca, PSG, Atalanta, Benfica, Spurs, Inter Milan.
Plenty of good players in there from good clubs but they’re not a team of international superstars. Some of their key and most recognisable players (Otamendi, di Maria, Messi himself) are getting into their mid 30s now as well. I’m glad for him that this final will have finally rid him of the extremely large shadow of Maradona and the no.10 shirt though.
That said I think Rodrigo de Paul has had an exceptional Copa America and I’d be amazed if he’s at Udinese next season. Mans got about 7 lungs and can do everything in midfield. Messi deserves his moment here but de Paul has knit this team together.
Whose is bigger?
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Tom Cruise, Kate Moss and many other football legends, like Niesta...
I've just passed my local, many of them will not make the KO it will be a mess in there
8pm on a Sunday's a bit ****ing silly, in my opinion. I know some countries have this as the norm though, so I guess it's a cultural difference.
Full list of attendee football "legends" :
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TalkShite were reporting a rumour that we're going with a back five tonight. Hope that isn't true. It means we surrender the initiative and invite pressure, plus we don't get to properly attack their LB, as we might if Saka/Sancho were on that wing. True our set pieces probably improve - which might be as important. Anyway, hope I'm wrong about the rumour, and wrong that it will weaken us, I really hope to be wrong.
3 at the back worked well against Germany and it’s about matching up to the system the opposition use, which Southgate has done a good job of this tournament. Keep the faith