Hurst OUT
- Thread starter Westlake33
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Sometimes and sometimes a symptom of other factors. I'm sure many of the retail managers are not doing anything differently than in the past, but external factors have changed so the strategy no longer works and they haven't been able to adapt. Town along with some other big clubs have never adapted to all the money coming into the game.
I'm fairly sure we will make a change soon so we will be able to see if anyone else can do any better with the resources at the club where nobody in the last 15 years, with progressively dwindling resources, has been able to.
Again - this isn't going to go down well and I'll get called my usual - but at some point in the future people may think differently.
Mick did exactly what you're suggesting above, well with the resources.
Magilton did well pre Evans until he got ££££ then was poor with resources. Keane and Jewell the same. Likewise Hurst to date ( we cannot say categorically yet as he's still got a job and it IS possible to turn )
I mean this is my expectation for us as a club. This is me, aged 32, and what I expect from ITFC given the league / opposition etc.
First off, we're sadly up against the immediate parachute payments of that season. So top 3 = no.
Next, we're up against clubs with parachute payments for the season before, and the season before that. Tough.
Then, we're up against clubs who put more £££ in. Leeds / Derby / Forest / Wendy. All of them however get far higher average gates than us. Wendy now will be the lowest of the 3 with 23,000. Derby probably 25,500. Forest with Mendes will be similar and Leeds very high 20s. How can we compete?
Next, we have other clubs in the league with ambition. The likes of Bristol City, etc. QPR looked bang in trouble this season, then went for Wells + Hamed. I would suggest they may end up really surprising people come the end of the season now. They backed up the 2-0 at Portman Road with 3-0 home to a decent Sheffield Wednesday side.
I haven't even mentioned Sheffield United / Norwich / others. However, again they are far more likely to be successful than us. They both get 25k a game. We get 15,500. It makes a massive difference. I get the fact we've been in this league since 2002, people are bored etc. However, we're losing a lot of income and that's handicapping us I would say.
So for myself, given our tight owner, vs this kind of recipe - I mean Sheffield Wednesday I know have got Rhodes on the payroll on over £40k a week. How can we compete!?
My expectation - and I've had this bashed into my friends the past five - ten years.......... is not much really. Of course, I want the best for ITFC. I want us to compete. I want us to achieve, I want us to be Premier League. I realise whoever has the job Hurst has with us, is up against it.
A league position I think should be our aim for the season - well I look around the league, and the same under Mick. It's not high. I would suggest around 17th is the position if you look at it from a pragmatic point of view around where we should finish. Therefore, SADLY, anything higher I would have to regard as a success and below, a failure.
That isn't to say we cannot do better than we are. Brentford have done well. Huddersfield fluked promotion by a different policy. Blackpool under Holloway with Adam + DJ Campbell on form happened. There will be other examples people can say. Preston + Millwall maybe have spent less than us, Millwall went on a quality run last season and almost came top 6.
Our best hope under anyone I would say is a generation of kids just absolutely coming in and it happening a couple of quality loanees / some great gambles and a season without the likes of Huws / Bishop / Adeyemi out all season.
We may survive this season. Hurst may turn it around yet ( doubt it ) If he doesn't, someone else is going to come in and hopefully save us.
Then what? What happens next? We're a club on a conveyer belt, slipping further down the belt and struggling more more more.
I've become quite apathetic to the situaiton at Portman Road, however, that is unfortunately how I see things right now.
Not great reading but yes - until I can see rays of light, that's it.
Mick did exactly what you're suggesting above, well with the resources.
Magilton did well pre Evans until he got ££££ then was poor with resources. Keane and Jewell the same. Likewise Hurst to date ( we cannot say categorically yet as he's still got a job and it IS possible to turn )
I mean this is my expectation for us as a club. This is me, aged 32, and what I expect from ITFC given the league / opposition etc.
First off, we're sadly up against the immediate parachute payments of that season. So top 3 = no.
Next, we're up against clubs with parachute payments for the season before, and the season before that. Tough.
Then, we're up against clubs who put more £££ in. Leeds / Derby / Forest / Wendy. All of them however get far higher average gates than us. Wendy now will be the lowest of the 3 with 23,000. Derby probably 25,500. Forest with Mendes will be similar and Leeds very high 20s. How can we compete?
Next, we have other clubs in the league with ambition. The likes of Bristol City, etc. QPR looked bang in trouble this season, then went for Wells + Hamed. I would suggest they may end up really surprising people come the end of the season now. They backed up the 2-0 at Portman Road with 3-0 home to a decent Sheffield Wednesday side.
I haven't even mentioned Sheffield United / Norwich / others. However, again they are far more likely to be successful than us. They both get 25k a game. We get 15,500. It makes a massive difference. I get the fact we've been in this league since 2002, people are bored etc. However, we're losing a lot of income and that's handicapping us I would say.
So for myself, given our tight owner, vs this kind of recipe - I mean Sheffield Wednesday I know have got Rhodes on the payroll on over £40k a week. How can we compete!?
My expectation - and I've had this bashed into my friends the past five - ten years.......... is not much really. Of course, I want the best for ITFC. I want us to compete. I want us to achieve, I want us to be Premier League. I realise whoever has the job Hurst has with us, is up against it.
A league position I think should be our aim for the season - well I look around the league, and the same under Mick. It's not high. I would suggest around 17th is the position if you look at it from a pragmatic point of view around where we should finish. Therefore, SADLY, anything higher I would have to regard as a success and below, a failure.
That isn't to say we cannot do better than we are. Brentford have done well. Huddersfield fluked promotion by a different policy. Blackpool under Holloway with Adam + DJ Campbell on form happened. There will be other examples people can say. Preston + Millwall maybe have spent less than us, Millwall went on a quality run last season and almost came top 6.
Our best hope under anyone I would say is a generation of kids just absolutely coming in and it happening a couple of quality loanees / some great gambles and a season without the likes of Huws / Bishop / Adeyemi out all season.
We may survive this season. Hurst may turn it around yet ( doubt it ) If he doesn't, someone else is going to come in and hopefully save us.
Then what? What happens next? We're a club on a conveyer belt, slipping further down the belt and struggling more more more.
I've become quite apathetic to the situaiton at Portman Road, however, that is unfortunately how I see things right now.
Not great reading but yes - until I can see rays of light, that's it.
That's a pretty accurate picture you've painted there Westy. The only thing i would add though, is if our owner is not spending the cash, which he obviously isn't, then we need to take a different approach to trying to succeed, and thats by trying to find a few hidden gems from the lower leagues and/or bringing through some promising youngsters.
Now, although yet to be successful, at least he (PH) has tried to find a few lower league gems, as opposed to signing your Tabb's and your Cokes.
I'm all for this approach, but maybe not 12 in one go.
Now, although yet to be successful, at least he (PH) has tried to find a few lower league gems, as opposed to signing your Tabb's and your Cokes.
I'm all for this approach, but maybe not 12 in one go.
Oh agree.
However I think that's a little bit of a one way point at a certain someone. You've highlighted Tabb on a free - who was a key part of our play off season. Without him Left mid - Mings wouldn't have been half as good. You've highlighted Coke - okay nothing to say there. Oh who signed Mings? Oh.....
Nothing against Hurst or any manager trying to find some lower league talents, however to gamble to the extreme like this and not get a few battled hardened pros who have been there / done it / and can guide the lower league players is beyond thick and needs to never happened again.
Likewise, the loan angle - there to be used well. Hurst hasn't done so. These loanees aren't miles better than what we have. It won't go down well with the squad this whatsoever.
You've not mentioned Sears / McGoldrick or Webster though. So it depends which way you wish to spin that one really! Best I can do is say the transfer policy of Mr X was mixed over his 5.5 years at the helm - however of course it's going to be given the spending options available!?
We -
* Have to use the lower leagues, Scotland
and other tools to sign our players.* We need to hope the academy is churning.
* Need players who will be fit at least 35 games a season.
* Have to sadly rely on big sales to keep the club afloat.
* Need to get people back to Portman Road spending their ££££ again.
As Cascada sang ( not my favourite artist but first song that came to mind ) .... need a miracle frankly.
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I would suggest a summer transfer policy for next summer, along the lines of this would be decent.
2 x season long loans, hopefully with talent that clearly warrants them being loaned and standouts.
3 x free transfers of players without bad injury records that suit the managers style and are worth giving a go. Maybe not worked out for one reason or other. Doesn't mean it wouldn't with us.
4 x money fees. We ' spent ' £5 mill last summer ( of course brought in more in sales......... ) so maybe something similar. Based on the above 5 players being our league or above, nothing against 3 lower league goes ( league 1 please, not 2 as the gap is huge ) and 1 at our level.
Of course, to do this based on our poor crowds / Evans / we'd have to sell some real talent. I can well see Bart / Knudsen going. If Dozza pushes on he'd fetch a fair penny too.
2 x season long loans, hopefully with talent that clearly warrants them being loaned and standouts.
3 x free transfers of players without bad injury records that suit the managers style and are worth giving a go. Maybe not worked out for one reason or other. Doesn't mean it wouldn't with us.
4 x money fees. We ' spent ' £5 mill last summer ( of course brought in more in sales......... ) so maybe something similar. Based on the above 5 players being our league or above, nothing against 3 lower league goes ( league 1 please, not 2 as the gap is huge ) and 1 at our level.
Of course, to do this based on our poor crowds / Evans / we'd have to sell some real talent. I can well see Bart / Knudsen going. If Dozza pushes on he'd fetch a fair penny too.
Agree with most the comments above, good debate.
I highly doubt we will make £10m, or anywhere near that figure, from player sales next summer that will fund another squad regeneration. I think most of our big-money assets have been sold off already (Webster and Waghorn) and, as we're likely to get relegated (at worse) or finish around mid-table (at best), I don't think we'd be in a strong position to retain high-performing, want-away players. Knudsen's contract expires next summer, so he'll likely leave on a free, and Bart's current predicament is likely to ensure we will receive a lower fee than some of the high valuations bandied about toward to the end of last season. From the current crop, Edwards may fetch a few million and our youngsters could demand a decent fee, if they improve performances. Therefore, the only realistic way that I can see us getting similar levels of funding from the previous transfer window is if Evans dips into his pocket and provides a transfer budget from his own pocket.
Aside from on the pitch and transfers, the primary factor that I think needs to be improved is a reduction in ticket prices. I also think a better, more focused emphasis on the match-day experience would be beneficial. For example, I see the club is pushing for alcohol to be allowed near the pitch, which may be a start but may be controversial for some. The '£10 ticket if you know a season ticket holder' scheme is a good initiative, and put an extra 4,000 on our attendance from the previous Saturday home match against Bolton, but I've heard we are limited with the amount of schemes we can do a season. I think increasing the match-day attendance if key, but we're fighting almost two decades of stagnation in this division, a poorly-performing team on the pitch, and all mid-week matches being shown on Sky.
I highly doubt we will make £10m, or anywhere near that figure, from player sales next summer that will fund another squad regeneration. I think most of our big-money assets have been sold off already (Webster and Waghorn) and, as we're likely to get relegated (at worse) or finish around mid-table (at best), I don't think we'd be in a strong position to retain high-performing, want-away players. Knudsen's contract expires next summer, so he'll likely leave on a free, and Bart's current predicament is likely to ensure we will receive a lower fee than some of the high valuations bandied about toward to the end of last season. From the current crop, Edwards may fetch a few million and our youngsters could demand a decent fee, if they improve performances. Therefore, the only realistic way that I can see us getting similar levels of funding from the previous transfer window is if Evans dips into his pocket and provides a transfer budget from his own pocket.
Aside from on the pitch and transfers, the primary factor that I think needs to be improved is a reduction in ticket prices. I also think a better, more focused emphasis on the match-day experience would be beneficial. For example, I see the club is pushing for alcohol to be allowed near the pitch, which may be a start but may be controversial for some. The '£10 ticket if you know a season ticket holder' scheme is a good initiative, and put an extra 4,000 on our attendance from the previous Saturday home match against Bolton, but I've heard we are limited with the amount of schemes we can do a season. I think increasing the match-day attendance if key, but we're fighting almost two decades of stagnation in this division, a poorly-performing team on the pitch, and all mid-week matches being shown on Sky.
To cut a long story short the current situation is not sustainable and the only way for the club to make a sustainable profit is to be in the Premier League and for that we probably need £30-£50m worth of transfer fees over a few windows on top of a £10-£20m increase to wages. It’s really as simple as that.
That's a well thought out piece of work Westy, Magilton was appointed when we were potless and although we had no stars what we did have was the Magilton work ethic coupled to some skills, we had players Jim knew and had played with, Counago came back and fitted in although he could never be said to be very enthusiastic on a January evening.
I enjoyed our football and couldn't see what Magilton had done wrong indeed we won the home match v the Budgies, but to Evans who knew nothing of our team ethic he wasn't a big enough " name " and unknown to Jim his successor was watching us beat Norwich from the stands.
We were doing ok in the league, we had reasonable gates, and there was no trace of apathy but that soon changed when Evans came, it was akin to putting a Chimpanzee in a racing car and sure enough it didn't take long to metaphorically run out of road, and we are still paying the price after a brief respite with MM and God knows how long this will continue.
I enjoyed our football and couldn't see what Magilton had done wrong indeed we won the home match v the Budgies, but to Evans who knew nothing of our team ethic he wasn't a big enough " name " and unknown to Jim his successor was watching us beat Norwich from the stands.
We were doing ok in the league, we had reasonable gates, and there was no trace of apathy but that soon changed when Evans came, it was akin to putting a Chimpanzee in a racing car and sure enough it didn't take long to metaphorically run out of road, and we are still paying the price after a brief respite with MM and God knows how long this will continue.
Yorkie bang on mate - if we're in this league, it's going to be a loss every season.
Only way to sort that out for the good is get to the promised land.
I try mate.
Jim was superb until the ££££ came on. I loved Royle, but 05/06 with the striker situation was pants.
Jim did play reasonably decent stuff sure. Not a band brand either. I enjoyed going to games under him.
Well, Jim had massively underachieved with the spend in Evans / mine and other peoples eyes. Given Evans was spending sums, I think Jim had to go. However, would it have killed Evans / us to have a bit of class and send him packing in the summer, not after an East Anglian derby win for heavens sake.
Two fold that would have helped us.
Keane went on record saying he came in, first game at Cardiff 3-0 win ( was there ) and we followed that up with a 2-1 home win v Coventry infront of I think a crowd of 25,000 plus. Everyone was buzzing for Keane, the ££££, and success coming.
Keane even thought the squad was good and didn't think it would need a lot of work.
Shame he managed them two games so had that opinion and a shame Jim was treated so poorly too.
Goodbye, Hurst.
Please stay in Yorkshire tonight, and clear your desk tomorrow. I wouldn't wanna listen to your drivel on the coach and I don't think it's the players have to.
Please stay in Yorkshire tonight, and clear your desk tomorrow. I wouldn't wanna listen to your drivel on the coach and I don't think it's the players have to.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Hurst isn't going anywhere soon. He'll be here til December at the earliest, unless results pick up and he'll stay for the longhaul.
I think it may depend on the next three. Lose the first two, for example, or all three and I think it leaves Evans no option.
I wonder how history will treat Paul Hurst and where he will rank alongside the other managerial entries into our rogues gallery of Keane, Jewell etc. Currently, he's siting at a 6.7% win rate, by far the lowest in our history, but also has not managed that many games.
I think this is it for PH, think Marcus has another plan up his sleeve. Of course I could be completely wrong, just have a feeling.
I have sympathy for Hurst's career after this, to be honest. There's no way to sugar coat it and unlike Jewell, McCarthy, Keane, Magilton, Royle he won't be set up for life already.