Glorious failure

[KingHotspur]

Ideally we would be like Barcelona. They play amazing football and win lots of trophies.

For all he has won, u will never see people refer to Mourinho teams as benchmarks like they do for Munich, Barcelona, Spain or Germany.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

All fans want to see their teams play attacking football and win. It's great if you can do both - and it's expected at clubs like Real Madrid and Utd because of their history and traditions and the importance to their popularity around the globe. There have certainly been times in the recent past where Real Madrid's implacable commitment to recruiting exciting attacking players has cost them trophies because it's been done at the expense of the team being defensively sound. At the other end of the scale, Chelsea are prepared to win ugly because it's the way their manager knows how to win.

Spurs have traditionally had an attacking philosophy because it was successful in the early '50s and '60s, but at times since, you could say it has been costly in terms of winning trophies. The team of the mid to late '80s might have won the title, but probably played with too much emphasis on attacking flair.

But things have changed in the modern era. A more definite hierarchy of clubs has developed based on wealth and it is ever more important to get the results required to maintain or gradually improve your place in that hierarchy. We know how important a top four place is because of the financial rewards attached. This is particularly so for clubs who have only an outside chance of winning the title. So most managers are pragmatists now. Redknapp played an exciting style of football because it suited the strengths of his side when Bale and Modric, in particular, blossomed. Pochettino doesn't have players of that calibre at his disposal and would take a massive risk if he tried to adopt the same style and saw his side exposed defensively. We've seen how much criticism Wenger gets for stubbornly playing his way when his team gets found out season after season and falls short in the PL. Arsenal are the true glorious failures of the PL at present.

 

[Spurlock]

Personally I've followed Spurs for over 30 years and been indoctrinated with the tag that we are a team that traditionally plays football as it should be played. High tempo and 'entertaining'. However in our attempts to produce such a brand we have won **** all in the process.

So as much as the brand is 'entertaining'..I would happily exchange it for a few years of solid football with organisation and trophies. At the end of the day..for me as a fan it's about being able to say that my team won a trophy, not my team played the better football, but lost. Nah, bollocks to that romanticised notion...I've had a lifetime of it. I agree with Roy Keane's sentiments and thought something along them lines myself for many a year. We went 3-0 up against United at Half time and managed to lose 5-3. I don't really remember that match in fondness as to how we destroyed a very good team in 45 minutes. I remember it for the embarrassing second half which once again confirmed to me that we are happy with second best so long as we gave it a 'right real go'...and us, the fans should be happy enough with that. When Spurs would be leading in matches against big teams..I always and stil do get the sense that If we lose that lead, the whole Spurs family shouldn't think we lost but instead think something along the lines of...'oh well we did well to get a draw' or 'it was much closer this year'.

It's like what the Germans say about the English. A quarter final in a WC is failure for us but success for the English...seems to me as though we(Spurs) have accepted our place in the grand scheme of things. A club with the odd potential superstar, a few games a season where we gave the big boys a run for their money..and anything else is a bonus...hey we did well to get to the league cup final..but it was ours to earn and Chelsea's to lose....that was the subconscious preliminary thought.



I want to in order of preference:
Win gloriously
Win dirty
Win lucky.

Im afraid we can't cherry pick the best footballers..so we can't play the best football, in the right manner, all of the time...so for me alternatives to the 'glory glory' brand of football has to be seeked at times...if we are to maybe muster the odd bit of real success and not moral success in footballing terms.

 

[remembercolinlee]

I have no fond memories of winning the 1999 league cup...it was a turgid final...the team showed character etc. but it was a dire match as were the semi finals v wimbledon. The team played awful football all that season and I have no affectionate memories of it. I am glad we won it as I don't want us to lose but I will not pay money to watch that dross week in week out.
I was fortunate to go to the 125 match... 4-1 down with 20 to go and we got a 4 all draw...remains my favourite match.
The following day in work an arsenal fan listened to me explain the match and asked...wouldn't you have preferred a 1 nil win and couldn't understand when I said that actually in years to come I wouldn't remember the match if that had been the score but til my dying day I will remember the elation of seeing Kaboul smash the ball into the roof of the net.
I walked away exhilarated, frustrated, amazed but most of all entertained. .. I feel the same way about our CL campaign...what a ride.

The 1995 to 2004 seasons were among the worst I can remember in my 40 yrs a spur...we were boring with only one or two exceptions...(beating southampton 7-2, chelsea 5-1) but mostly it was tedious & souless. We won 1 trophy in those 9 yrs and 1 in the 11 since but give me the last 11 years over that dross.

Not sure this answers the original question but thats my 2ps worth

 

[Shark]

I think any fan that says otherwise is a liar, or totally missing the point of why football's so popular. It's supposed to be entertaining!

Which match did you enjoy more, losing 4-3 against Inter or winning 1-0 at home against Swansea? If your answer is the Swansea game then I feel bad for you because you're missing out on a lot of what I think makes football brilliant. If I ever thought the game was all about results it would be dull and be of no more interest to me than competitive tiddlywinks.

The more i consider this, the more i know that i fundamentally disagree... I hate glorious failures and i bet that every single one of us would, if the gods of football allowed it, pick a win, any kind of win over a loss, every single time.

 

[Shark]

I have no fond memories of winning the 1999 league cup...it was a turgid final...the team showed character etc. but it was a dire match as were the semi finals v wimbledon. The team played awful football all that season and I have no affectionate memories of it. I am glad we won it as I don't want us to lose but I will not pay money to watch that dross week in week out.
I was fortunate to go to the 125 match... 4-1 down with 20 to go and we got a 4 all draw...remains my favourite match.
The following day in work an arsenal fan listened to me explain the match and asked...wouldn't you have preferred a 1 nil win and couldn't understand when I said that actually in years to come I wouldn't remember the match if that had been the score but til my dying day I will remember the elation of seeing Kaboul smash the ball into the roof of the net.
I walked away exhilarated, frustrated, amazed but most of all entertained. .. I feel the same way about our CL campaign...what a ride.

The 1995 to 2004 seasons were among the worst I can remember in my 40 yrs a spur...we were boring with only one or two exceptions...(beating southampton 7-2, chelsea 5-1) but mostly it was tedious & souless. We won 1 trophy in those 9 yrs and 1 in the 11 since but give me the last 11 years over that dross.

Not sure this answers the original question but thats my 2ps worth

I wonder if Chelsea fans feel the same about their winning Champions League campaign... They were dross and there were so many miracles involved in them actually winning the thing.

I always pictured a dad giving his kid a DVD of the campaign... "Here it is son, the DVD of our champions league win", "Can we watch it dad?".... "No son, never actually watch it... "

 

[redwhiteandermblue]

The more i consider this, the more i know that i fundamentally disagree... I hate glorious failures and i bet that every single one of us would, if the gods of football allowed it, pick a win, any kind of win over a loss, every single time.

Yes and no. I’d rather Spurs win any individual game. But I am always looking for the right lost cause to back. Shallow people back winners.

My first team, which I will always support, are probably the biggest losers in the history of sport. It’s been 107 years since the Cubs won a title. As much pain as it’s caused me over the years, I wouldn’t have it any other way. There are things that are more important than winning.

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[The Changing Man]

What a great debate, so many great points of view, I find myself drawn both ways as I read what you have written. I don't know what I side I really come down on.

I do know that I love watching football played what is traditionally known as the Spurs way. In my Spurs lifetime (from the early 70s) we have had truly wonderful players, just think Hoddle, Ardiles, Waddle, Gazza, Klinnsmann, Sheringham, Ginola, Modric, VDV, Bale and many others, but how many really great teams have we had? My favourite Tottenham side is the David Pleat 86/87 side, but that ended in glorious failure, 3rd in the league, lost one of the most entertaining cup finals ever and lost a league cup semi to the goons despite being the better side, but I still have a great fondness for that season because of the football that we played. Next up would be the first 2/3 of Harrys last season when we were everyones favourite 2nd team, open attacking football that was a joy to watch but again ultimately a failure.

On the other hand I do want to win and sometimes it has to be done the ugly way, particularly against the sides who come with no intention of playing a nice open game themselves, so in order to win something yes I will take a more pragmatic approach. Lets be honest the league looks beyond us in the foreseeable future, money dictates that we will be playing catch up for a few years yet, so lets go big on the cups, all 3 of them on our day we can beat anyone, hopefully we would win them with a bit of style, but if we see our captain being handed a trophy after the most boring final in history will any of us really care?

 

[LockStock]

Great post Shark.

I agree and believe that on some level, that quote does lead to us tolerating failure in a way that means we expect less than the Man U's of this sport.

This is why they believe they have a divine right to our players, and I'm certain that this acceptance of mediocrity is what is highlighted to players by those snooping clubs. Bale, Modric, Berbatov etc. "Come to us and win trophies."

Man U, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Chelsea, Man City now all expect to win their leagues. Liverpool are now fighting for their position in the 'perceived to be winners' camp of teams, as are Arsenal as they've been knocked from their once comfortable perch.

Me, I'll take 3 points any way it comes and was happy to see us win games last season whilst not looking amazing. We know that when Man United were at their peak, and playing well, even they had to win a few matches whilst outplayed and looking ordinary or even uninspiring. Case in point the win against us last weekend.

That's what champions do.

Plus, we are in transition. To get the best players, who might bring flair, you need to be a top team. To become a top team, you have to beat other top teams, and lesser sometimes scraper teams. You have to adapt to do that. I'm a fan of Redknapp, loved what he did, but I'm glad we have Pochettino now. He's making us systematically solid. Soon we won't be over reliant on individuals as we'll have systems that work, even for kids.

We can't get to 'winning things' by accepting our position as underdogs. We have to become winners in our minds, then we will win things.

My order of preference......

Glorious win.

Skin of our teeth win.

Boring win.

Glorious draw.

Boring draw.

Loss with echo of glory. (San Siro, I guess.)

Boring, uneventful loss.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Great post Shark.

I agree and believe that on some level, that quote does lead to us tolerating failure in a way that means we expect less than the Man U's of this sport.

This is why they believe they have a divine right to our players, and I'm certain that this acceptance of mediocrity is what is highlighted to players by those snooping clubs. Bale, Modric, Berbatov etc. "Come to us and win trophies."

Man U, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Chelsea, Man City now all expect to win their leagues. Liverpool are now fighting for their position in the 'perceived to be winners' camp of teams, as are Arsenal as they've been knocked from their once comfortable perch.

Me, I'll take 3 points any way it comes and was happy to see us win games last season whilst not looking amazing. We know that when Man United were at their peak, and playing well, even they had to win a few matches whilst outplayed and looking ordinary or even uninspiring. Case in point the win against us last weekend.

That's what champions do.

Plus, we are in transition. To get the best players, who might bring flair, you need to be a top team. To become a top team, you have to beat other top teams, and lesser sometimes scraper teams. You have to adapt to do that. I'm a fan of Redknapp, loved what he did, but I'm glad we have Pochettino now. He's making us systematically solid. Soon we won't be over reliant on individuals as we'll have systems that work, even for kids.

We can't get to 'winning things' by accepting our position as underdogs. We have to become winners in our minds, then we will win things.

My order of preference......

Glorious win.

Skin of our teeth win.

Boring win.

Glorious draw.

Boring draw.

Loss with echo of glory. (San Siro, I guess.)

Boring, uneventful loss.

You forgot to add fluky win!

 

[paultheplug]

My order of preference

Win when Merson predicts a loss
Win when Lawro predicts a loss
Any other win
Draw
All other results surgically removed with alcohol

 

[No Kane No Gain]

At the end of the day..for me as a fan it's about being able to say that my team won a trophy, not my team played the better football, but lost. Nah, bollocks to that romanticised notion...

It's not a romanticised notion, football is romantic. We all love football, we all love our clubs. That's why we put up with all the bullshit, like the bastardisation of formerly great trophies like the UEFA Cup, or some of the utter crap we've watched our team play at times, or the increased focus on money buying success. If you didn't love the game and love your club you'd be a fair weather fan that disappears as soon as things get tough and reappears whenever things get good. Clearly no one here's a fair weather fan no matter how disgruntled we might get.

The more i consider this, the more i know that i fundamentally disagree... I hate glorious failures and i bet that every single one of us would, if the gods of football allowed it, pick a win, any kind of win over a loss, every single time.

And what if you were offered a great game of football or a terrible, boring game with no result known? You'd take the great game everytime, wouldn't you? That's because fundamentally, we're not football fans because we like looking at a scoresheet at the end of the game, there are many other fators that lead us to being football fans.

I used to play rugby when I was younger and I enjoyed it. I went to London Welsh(my club) a few times to watch senior matches and I went to Twickenham a few times to watch England. The reason I never went regularly wasn't because of the results, it was because I just didn't find it enertaining, win or lose.

Football is what I do enjoy. As a young Spurs fan in the mid 90s to mid 00s period that RCL mentioned, I wouldn't have remained a Spurs fan long if winning was all that mattered to me(or good football for that matter). I don't see why it's so inomprehensible to enjoy a lot more about football and being a football fan than just seeing your team win.

 

[Boss]

As I have got older, the ways I support the club have changed, as like YV, I was a young spurs fan in the 90's, I was even that sad I would arrive early to pick up tickets when we battled relegation and I knew we would lose, I knew our football would be crap and Jason Dozzell was someone you viewed as being a possible match winner if we managed to perform well!

During the 90's my support (while attending games) was never based around any form of success such as winning major trophies, just enjoying supporting the club so the season we had Klinsmann, nearly won the FA Cup, was a treat! that was success (for me anyway), being respected as a side in the league, watching a world class player but then gutted when Everton destroyed our cup dream.

So while it would be great to win major trophies, I'm more interested in seeing us play exciting football, be respected as a team, create memories and have players/managers I can relate to, thats why I loved the Redknapp era as it was just a great time to watch the team and finishing top four was like winning a trophy, that was more dramatic and meant more to the club then winning the carling cup.

 

[KingHotspur]

Winning is important but being **** and entertaining is better than being average and boring.

Either way you don't win trophies but at least one way is exciting even if not for 'good' reasons.

 

[Spurlock]

Yes and no. I’d rather Spurs win any individual game. But I am always looking for the right lost cause to back. Shallow people back winners.

My first team, which I will always support, are probably the biggest losers in the history of sport. It’s been 107 years since the Cubs won a title. As much pain as it’s caused me over the years, I wouldn’t have it any other way. There are things that are more important than winning.

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i dont back winners.....i would have been a Liverpool fan in the 80's or a United fan in the 90's. I back Spurs even if we get 2 points from 8 games etc. However i still would want us to win ugly and win a few trophies. The fact that we support regardless of the result means we are backing a real cause. we live in hope....i can rarely recall a Spurs season that was not labelled a 'transitional season' for one reason or another. I guess now some people are just hoping that this period can lead to something else.....but no doubt if it doesnt, we will all still be here as spurs fans...but that doesnt mean i for one would not welcome a few rubbish performances but positive results...it's what all the good teams do..i cant recall many spurs teams that 'roll up their sleeves'....maybe signs of it but certainly not as a definiton of THFC. Maybe Spurs fans are arrogant and think that our club is the definition of 'real football' and we are duty bound to play the game the 'right' way regardless of the result. I think i was like that...but now i feel as though the goalposts need to shift.....they could always shift back to our 'glory glory' method...but right now if we are to take on the Chelsea's and City's..then we have to try other methods too. Im talking about a different way to approach games at times, not cheating. Arsenal and Wenger suffer from this same fate...their is a brand they have to live up to with their short triangular brand of football...but its not getting them onto that next stage up....this our way or no way attitude means a life of mediocrity.

 

[maggie blanchflower]

Reading through these posts makes me feel extremely privileged to have witnessed, in the flesh as it were, at least 16 trophies and I admire you 'youngsters' for your love of the club without having the fabulous memories in the locker. I was lucky enough to see:
Foot. League Champs: 50/51, 60/61
FA Cup: 60/61, 61/62, 66/67, 80/81, 81/82
European cup winners cup: 1963 (triffic memories there, 1st flight, 1st trip abroad, great win!)
Charity shield: 62, 63, 67, 82
UEFA Cup: 72,84
plus of course some of the greatest nights ever in the European Cup rounds. The excitement and atmosphere stay with you for ever.
I know some of us old 'uns get teased for living in the past but when your old you have the memories!
Keep the faith everyone, even though the Premiership has changed the fortunes of most clubs forever and spoilt football as I knew it, there is bound to be another great season in there somewhere. I just hope I'm still here to see it!

 

[gooner4ever]

It's possible to do both. O.k. It's the F.A. Cup, not a league title or the C.L. But A#*+#^L play attractive football, and win things. Why does it have to be one or the other??

Actually Spurs have always strived to play football the right way (like Arsenal do) and that is to be admired, if you get some consistency in your choice of manager and transfer policy then the trophies should follow,

 

[NSIS]

Actually Spurs have always strived to play football the right way (like Arsenal do) and that is to be admired, if you get some consistency in your choice of manager and transfer policy then the trophies should follow,

Until recently, yes. Under AVB, and to some extent under M.P, we are not playing attractive football, and we're not winning enough either.

I hope that the need to inject some pace into our attack will finally be addressed by the mooted incoming(s)

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Reading through these posts makes me feel extremely privileged to have witnessed, in the flesh as it were, at least 16 trophies and I admire you 'youngsters' for your love of the club without having the fabulous memories in the locker. I was lucky enough to see:
Foot. League Champs: 50/51, 60/61
FA Cup: 60/61, 61/62, 66/67, 80/81, 81/82
European cup winners cup: 1963 (triffic memories there, 1st flight, 1st trip abroad, great win!)
Charity shield: 62, 63, 67, 82
UEFA Cup: 72,84
plus of course some of the greatest nights ever in the European Cup rounds. The excitement and atmosphere stay with you for ever.
I know some of us old 'uns get teased for living in the past but when your old you have the memories!
Keep the faith everyone, even though the Premiership has changed the fortunes of most clubs forever and spoilt football as I knew it, there is bound to be another great season in there somewhere. I just hope I'm still here to see it!

Yeah, well I saw us win the Peace Cup

 

[gooner4ever]

Yeah, well I saw us win the Peace Cup

Wtf is that ?