Off Topic General Election

Personally I would be sorry if Scotland decided at any point in time to leave, but then I don't believe in countries in the modern world thinking that they can live in isolation from their neighbours. Brexit is an excuse for a country that does not understand the benefits of being part of an association of nations, with it being far more than a trading deal.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
Personally I would be sorry if Scotland decided at any point in time to leave, but then I don't believe in countries in the modern world thinking that they can live in isolation from their neighbours. Brexit is an excuse for a country that does not understand the benefits of being part of an association of nations, with it being far more than a trading deal.
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I would also be sorry if that happened Frenchie - mostly for emotional reasons because my parents were Scots but I was born in England. However, there is no other country in the World where such a referendum which produced a 52-48% result (only from those who voted), and against the wishes of 2 of its constituent nations (not to mention London and all of its big cities), which also disenfranchised millions of ex pats, would then be pushed through in such a fashion where more or less every dissenting voice is shouted down. If we were talking about some country at the other end of the World here, and not Britain, then we would be proclaiming a democratic deficit and championing the smaller nation's right to break free. Westminster has no right to tear Scotland away from Europe against its will - or to place EU. citizens, who are welcome in Scotland, in a position of uncertainty.
 
colognehornet said:
I would also be sorry if that happened Frenchie - mostly for emotional reasons because my parents were Scots but I was born in England. However, there is no other country in the World where such a referendum which produced a 52-48% result (only from those who voted), and against the wishes of 2 of its constituent nations (not to mention London and all of its big cities), which also disenfranchised millions of ex pats, would then be pushed through in such a fashion where more or less every dissenting voice is shouted down. If we were talking about some country at the other end of the World here, and not Britain, then we would be proclaiming a democratic deficit and championing the smaller nation's right to break free. Westminster has no right to tear Scotland away from Europe against its will - or to place EU. citizens, who are welcome in Scotland, in a position of uncertainty.
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One of the things that Macron has been saying is that everyone who lives full time in a country should have a vote in all elections, and has promised it for France should he get elected. Many people that I know who were entitled to vote in the referendum never received their voting papers, despite being registered. The Tory government promised to abolish the 15 year rule, but we still wait. In these times is it right to say who should vote and who shouldn't? Those who have been disenfranchised are impressed with how backward the UK seems when it come to democracy.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
One of the things that Macron has been saying is that everyone who lives full time in a country should have a vote in all elections, and has promised it for France should he get elected. Many people that I know who were entitled to vote in the referendum never received their voting papers, despite being registered. The Tory government promised to abolish the 15 year rule, but we still wait. In these times is it right to say who should vote and who shouldn't? Those who have been disenfranchised are impressed with how backward the UK seems when it come to democracy.
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The answer is that every tax payer should have a vote - in fact everyone who places themselves under a countries legal system should have the right to shape the laws which they live under. I hope that Macron's idea catches on in Germany. Having said that, I think that a proven knowledge of the language should be a requirement before gaining voting rights. We have had a lot to do with Belgium in recent years, and they have compulsory voting coupled with the highest rate of naturalization in Europe - which means that their manifestoes, and election material is printed in about 8 different languages. As far as I know Britain is the only country which has this 15 year ruling.
 
colognehornet said:
The answer is that every tax payer should have a vote - in fact everyone who places themselves under a countries legal system should have the right to shape the laws which they live under. I hope that Macron's idea catches on in Germany. Having said that, I think that a proven knowledge of the language should be a requirement before gaining voting rights. We have had a lot to do with Belgium in recent years, and they have compulsory voting coupled with the highest rate of naturalization in Europe - which means that their manifestoes, and election material is printed in about 8 different languages. As far as I know Britain is the only country which has this 15 year ruling.
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I would agree that people who choose to live in a country that has a different language to the one they grew up with should make an effort to learn it. Some will find it easy, others very difficult. Nearly all of the towns and villages in these parts provide free language lessons to help people integrate, and I know plenty who have found them a help, while others have not, but at least they tried. All of the commune councils were encouraged to have a bi-lingual speaker on the council, and they all seem to have found someone willing. If you wish to apply for citizenship here you do have to pass a language test unless you are of a certain age, but there will be an interview in French, so no language at all means no French passport.
 
colognehornet said:
I knew that the expression 'Free Scotland' would ruffle a few feathers <laugh> No, Scotland is not a 'free' country - in the way that the UK. was 'free' in the EU. If Scotland were a 'free' country they would not need to ask permission of Westminster before having a referendum - did the UK. need the permission of the EU. before their referendum ? All but one Scottish MP are also against Trident being stationed there - does it make a difference ? No, it is forced on them.
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Takes far more than that to ruffle my feathers. I am only amused that someone living in Germany can be so arrogant at thinking he knows so much about Scotland. Try living here. Most Scots consider themselves a free people living in a UK. Most do not want independence as shown in the referendum and even recent opinion polls. The SNP is riding a short wave of popular nationalism with a couple of good leaders. They do not fool us.
Of course Scotland cannot break up the 300 years of history affecting Wales, NI and England without consulting them. We will be given a referendum if and when we demand another. When we voted in 2014 we knew it was a possibility that the UK would leave the EU. The SNP made big play on that and we voted to stay part of the UK with knowledge of that possibility. During that campaign the SNP agreed it would be a once in a lifetime vote. They are a bunch of deceitful opportunists who prey on our dislike of the Tories.
If Scotland did not have Westminster as a buffer the SNP would force on Scotland what we do not want. You are fooled by the very clever SNP machine.
Why not now tell us about where you live as you will be better informed.
 
EdHorn said:
Takes far more than that to ruffle my feathers. I am only amused that someone living in Germany can be so arrogant at thinking he knows so much about Scotland. Try living here. Most Scots consider themselves a free people living in a UK. Most do not want independence as shown in the referendum and even recent opinion polls. The SNP is riding a short wave of popular nationalism with a couple of good leaders. They do not fool us.
Of course Scotland cannot break up the 300 years of history affecting Wales, NI and England without consulting them. We will be given a referendum if and when we demand another. When we voted in 2014 we knew it was a possibility that the UK would leave the EU. The SNP made big play on that and we voted to stay part of the UK with knowledge of that possibility. During that campaign the SNP agreed it would be a once in a lifetime vote. They are a bunch of deceitful opportunists who prey on our dislike of the Tories.
If Scotland did not have Westminster as a buffer the SNP would force on Scotland what we do not want. You are fooled by the very clever SNP machine.
Why not now tell us about where you live as you will be better informed.
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If the recent YouGov poll was anything to go by there must be an awful lot of people in Scotland that do like the Tories. SNP44%, Tories 33%. I do however suspect much of the Tory support is anti SNP.

Once the independence idea is buried for good, what is the relevance of the SNP.? They don't seem very good at actually running Scotland.
 
EdHorn said:
One day parties will wake up to the fact that our environment needs taking care of - not helped by the likes of Trump of course being a climate change denier
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I don't think it's an issue that just political parties should be 'in charge of' - in all countries they appear to view it as more important to frack, dig up, chop down etc - all in the name of money. My current rage is against the Australian government who are intent on allowing an Indian coal mining giant to ruin the Great Barrier Reef - which is already happening, have unfettered access to the limited amount of water in a drought-stricken state, and to trample all over Native Title Legislation which their own party introduced amid self-righteous publicity.

Stories such as that are being repeated all over the world and I really do think it time that stewardship of the planet be taken out of political hands.
 
Bolton's Boots said:
I don't think it's an issue that just political parties should be 'in charge of' - in all countries they appear to view it as more important to frack, dig up, chop down etc - all in the name of money. My current rage is against the Australian government who are intent on allowing an Indian coal mining giant to ruin the Great Barrier Reef - which is already happening, have unfettered access to the limited amount of water in a drought-stricken state, and to trample all over Native Title Legislation which their own party introduced amid self-righteous publicity.

Stories such as that are being repeated all over the world and I really do think it time that stewardship of the planet be taken out of political hands.
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Totally agree, BB, but struggle to see how this could be done while politicians still dictate national legislation. What kind of stewardship did you have in mind and how could it overrule individual government interests?
 
hornethologist a.k.a. theo said:
Totally agree, BB, but struggle to see how this could be done while politicians still dictate national legislation. What kind of stewardship did you have in mind and how could it overrule individual government interests?
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That I cannot answer - it would a far greater mind than the one I have to live with. :(

There must, however, be some in all of the Green parties around the world who could get their heads together and look at ways of achieving it - through getting the public onside for example. They are the ones who vote the current idiots in in the first place.
 
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Bolton's Boots said:
I don't think it's an issue that just political parties should be 'in charge of' - in all countries they appear to view it as more important to frack, dig up, chop down etc - all in the name of money. My current rage is against the Australian government who are intent on allowing an Indian coal mining giant to ruin the Great Barrier Reef - which is already happening, have unfettered access to the limited amount of water in a drought-stricken state, and to trample all over Native Title Legislation which their own party introduced amid self-righteous publicity.

Stories such as that are being repeated all over the world and I really do think it time that stewardship of the planet be taken out of political hands.
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Totally agree. Organisation like Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth have for decades been helpful in keeping green issues to the fore. Still we will only get legislation from governments and somehow they need to be able to look further than the narrow 4-5 year window that voting dictates. I also have no solution but who will explain to our grandchildren that there were once species that no longer exist - and a Great Barrier Reef that is one of the wonders of the world - but that mankind destroyed.
 
EdHorn said:
Takes far more than that to ruffle my feathers. I am only amused that someone living in Germany can be so arrogant at thinking he knows so much about Scotland. Try living here. Most Scots consider themselves a free people living in a UK. Most do not want independence as shown in the referendum and even recent opinion polls. The SNP is riding a short wave of popular nationalism with a couple of good leaders. They do not fool us.
Of course Scotland cannot break up the 300 years of history affecting Wales, NI and England without consulting them. We will be given a referendum if and when we demand another. When we voted in 2014 we knew it was a possibility that the UK would leave the EU. The SNP made big play on that and we voted to stay part of the UK with knowledge of that possibility. During that campaign the SNP agreed it would be a once in a lifetime vote. They are a bunch of deceitful opportunists who prey on our dislike of the Tories.
If Scotland did not have Westminster as a buffer the SNP would force on Scotland what we do not want. You are fooled by the very clever SNP machine.
Why not now tell us about where you live as you will be better informed.
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So, the logic of this is that only those who live in Scotland are qualified to make comments about it. Therefore the same applies to France or anywhere else - we can also not make comments about Trump, May or Corbyn, because none of us know them personally - or really know what goes on behind the scenes. I will stick to talking about Germany, Frenchie can talk about France, you can talk to us about Edinburgh and Yorkie can talk to us about Yorkshire - what kind of debate would it be then ? Logically speaking only 2 of us on here are then qualified to make comments about Europe - because only 2 of us actually live there. There are 4 posters on here who live in Scotland and, correct me if I am wrong, only one of those is of Scottish parentage - or are you Scottish ? My parents were from Scotland and I still have family there, as I do in the rest of the UK. and I keep up regular contact - both on the personal, and the political level. Other than that I do not see how my location has any bearing on my discussion here, and, as you know nothing else about me you would be well advised to refrain from casting judgement as to my competence (or otherwise).
 
I am watching two elections at the same time. The French one to decide who will be the next President, and the UK one when it becomes more like a Presidential election every day. The UK one should be different, but it is coming down to personality rather than policy.
 
colognehornet said:
So, the logic of this is that only those who live in Scotland are qualified to make comments about it. Therefore the same applies to France or anywhere else - we can also not make comments about Trump, May or Corbyn, because none of us know them personally - or really know what goes on behind the scenes. I will stick to talking about Germany, Frenchie can talk about France, you can talk to us about Edinburgh and Yorkie can talk to us about Yorkshire - what kind of debate would it be then ? Logically speaking only 2 of us on here are then qualified to make comments about Europe - because only 2 of us actually live there. There are 4 posters on here who live in Scotland and, correct me if I am wrong, only one of those is of Scottish parentage - or are you Scottish ? My parents were from Scotland and I still have family there, as I do in the rest of the UK. and I keep up regular contact - both on the personal, and the political level. Other than that I do not see how my location has any bearing on my discussion here, and, as you know nothing else about me you would be well advised to refrain from casting judgement as to my competence (or otherwise).
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You take a minor observation and push it too far. If I believed that only Scots could talk about Scotland I would not want Westminster to have any say. However I think to tell Scots that we do not have a Free Scotland you need to know what you are talking about. Perhaps you do but if so you have severely mistaken the mood of the Scottish people. You have fallen into the trap of taking the largest party and thinking they represent the views of a majority. I only suggested you tell us about Germany as you probably know more than the rest of us do - you have an inside knowledge. I would not dream of assessing Alt D or whatever they are called from outside Germany. I consider it rude to tell a people they are not free - perhaps you do not. If I am not mistaken you have criticised another poster on here who has commented on Germany. Each to their own but I do not want one of your lengthy ping pong debates so you can have the field from here on.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
I am watching two elections at the same time. The French one to decide who will be the next President, and the UK one when it becomes more like a Presidential election every day. The UK one should be different, but it is coming down to personality rather than policy.
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It is very hard to ignore the rank incompetence and uncertainty that surrounds Corbyn. On the other hand the electorate are currently extremely confident in the competence of the PM. Behind the personalities there is a perception of mismanagement, rightly in my view, of Labour's handling of the nation's funds. They don't like Labour's senior officials record on supporting terrorists, doubts about NATO, and most of all, the infighting between the MP's and the parliamentary party. The Labour Party is currently a shambles which will be reflected in the local and general elections.
 
EdHorn said:
You take a minor observation and push it too far. If I believed that only Scots could talk about Scotland I would not want Westminster to have any say. However I think to tell Scots that we do not have a Free Scotland you need to know what you are talking about. Perhaps you do but if so you have severely mistaken the mood of the Scottish people. You have fallen into the trap of taking the largest party and thinking they represent the views of a majority. I only suggested you tell us about Germany as you probably know more than the rest of us do - you have an inside knowledge. I would not dream of assessing Alt D or whatever they are called from outside Germany. I consider it rude to tell a people they are not free - perhaps you do not. If I am not mistaken you have criticised another poster on here who has commented on Germany. Each to their own but I do not want one of your lengthy ping pong debates so you can have the field from here on.
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I think that you are overreacting to the use of the word 'free' - how is this different from 'independent' ? It is not meant as an insult - a person with eg. a 'Free Tibet' sticker on his car is not insulting Tibetans in the process. Scotland is not free to pursue its favoured course with the EU. It is not free to have a referendum without the ok. of Westminster, and it is not 'free' to tell Westminster what to do with Trident. I criticized comments on Germany, at one point, because they were using stereotypes which are about 70 years old - and, I have no taste for ping pong.
 
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