Off Topic General Election

I cannot think why TM would want to hang on. Can you imagine what Question Time on Wednesday (if there is one) will be like. She is as Osborne described a "dead woman walking" There is no way she can possibly lead the Tories into another election whether that is in 5 years or 5 months. If she is going why not go now? If need be she can announce her intention to step down but to remain as caretaker until a new leader is elected. She is bound to go down as one of the most useless and embarrassing Tory leaders for a long time - so much for strong and stable - and an election battle bus trumpeting her name.
 
EdHorn said:
I cannot think why TM would want to hang on. Can you imagine what Question Time on Wednesday (if there is one) will be like. She is as Osborne described a "dead woman walking" There is no way she can possibly lead the Tories into another election whether that is in 5 years or 5 months. If she is going why not go now? If need be she can announce her intention to step down but to remain as caretaker until a new leader is elected. She is bound to go down as one of the most useless and embarrassing Tory leaders for a long time - so much for strong and stable - and an election battle bus trumpeting her name.
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But do 'Strong and stable' parties change leaders twice within an electoral term ? This is becoming an image problem and it could be asked - which clown without a mandate are they going to throw at us next ? She was, after all, thrown in at the deep end because the previous clown had also scored a massive own goal. Can the Tories (and Orange allies) begin negotiations with the EU. and change clowns once again before those negotiations are finished ? Do the EU. really want to commence discussions with a government which could collapse at any minute ?
 
The Tories do not accept failure - they only want power. They will not care a hoot about "strong and stable" - it backfired as a joke anyway. TM will not win them an election so unlike Labour they will get rid - if not now then before the General Election. Do we really need to go down the gutter route of keep bringing up the Orange tag. The DUP have shared power in NI for years. Like Sinn Fein they have a dodgy past but these are a factor of toxic religion in NI. Unless Labour did a deal with the DUP they cannot defeat the Tories even with all the other parties so in effect the Tories did enough - just - to retain an effective majority. I might not like them but I am blowed if I am going down the smear route which is so favoured here. I will leave that to others. I believe I can make arguments on their own merit.
 
EdHorn said:
The Tories do not accept failure - they only want power. They will not care a hoot about "strong and stable" - it backfired as a joke anyway. TM will not win them an election so unlike Labour they will get rid - if not now then before the General Election. Do we really need to go down the gutter route of keep bringing up the Orange tag. The DUP have shared power in NI for years. Like Sinn Fein they have a dodgy past but these are a factor of toxic religion in NI. Unless Labour did a deal with the DUP they cannot defeat the Tories even with all the other parties so in effect the Tories did enough - just - to retain an effective majority. I might not like them but I am blowed if I am going down the smear route which is so favoured here. I will leave that to others. I believe I can make arguments on their own merit.
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It's not a smear or an orange tag, just a statement of reality - there are DUP MPs who are members of the Orange Lodge = fact. I asked the question of whether a ruling party could possibly change leaders twice within one electoral term and retain any credibility. I do think that TM. is an electoral liability, now or in 5 years time - but can they afford to change again ? I actually feel a bit sorry for her - she was thrown in at the deep end, the real culprit is dodging the flack and writing his memoirs somewhere up in Scotland.
 
EdHorn said:
The Tories do not accept failure - they only want power. They will not care a hoot about "strong and stable" - it backfired as a joke anyway. TM will not win them an election so unlike Labour they will get rid - if not now then before the General Election. Do we really need to go down the gutter route of keep bringing up the Orange tag. The DUP have shared power in NI for years. Like Sinn Fein they have a dodgy past but these are a factor of toxic religion in NI. Unless Labour did a deal with the DUP they cannot defeat the Tories even with all the other parties so in effect the Tories did enough - just - to retain an effective majority. I might not like them but I am blowed if I am going down the smear route which is so favoured here. I will leave that to others. I believe I can make arguments on their own merit.
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I could go on and on... .that is from the front page of a google search....

Links between DUP and the Orange order are that close... and to think that JC was vilified for his links with SF
 
In the next few weeks there will be a huge dilemma for the vast majority of Labour MPs (172) that called Corbyn useless and a clown last year. Will they creep back with their tails between their legs or just continue to hide like the previous twelve months? :bandit:
The latest poll give Labour a five point lead, I will withdraw my description of the UK electorate as sophisticated, they have obviously not costed the Labour bribes. <doh>
 
In the next few days the Tory party has to make a huge choice, do they stick with the PM who believed she was so popular that the public would turn up and vote for her even when she avoided all contact with the voters. She said that if she lost six seats she would not be able to go to Brussels and get a deal, at the same time refusing to tell anyone what the deal might look like. The problem now is not just about can this cobbled together coalition run the country, but can it last long enough to see the talks through. Get rid of her which would have happened under normal circumstances and there would be another leader without a mandate. Whatever the 1922 committee decide the government is now unable to speak for the majority, and this will be seen in the EU. She wanted unlimited power, and the voters said no. Maybe some of her MPs will also say enough is enough.
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
In the next few days the Tory party has to make a huge choice, do they stick with the PM who believed she was so popular that the public would turn up and vote for her even when she avoided all contact with the voters. She said that if she lost six seats she would not be able to go to Brussels and get a deal, at the same time refusing to tell anyone what the deal might look like. The problem now is not just about can this cobbled together coalition run the country, but can it last long enough to see the talks through. Get rid of her which would have happened under normal circumstances and there would be another leader without a mandate. Whatever the 1922 committee decide the government is now unable to speak for the majority, and this will be seen in the EU. She wanted unlimited power, and the voters said no. Maybe some of her MPs will also say enough is enough.
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The government, with Theresa May or her successor, does speak for the majority as the leader of the chosen political party, no other party came close in the number of seats. The Tory party are excellent in rallying round when required, they will do everything to avoid the chance of the country being ruined by the Labour clown and his ministers that do not possess the ability to add up.
 
Surely you are not deserting her in her hour of need by even contemplating that she might be out of office. It is no longer the Tory party who are in control of events, they will have to bend to the will of others. As you well know the system works in the way it does, and the policies have been rejected.
 
superhorns said:
The government, with Theresa May or her successor, does speak for the majority as the leader of the chosen political party, no other party came close in the number of seats. The Tory party are excellent in rallying round when required, they will do everything to avoid the chance of the country being ruined by the Labour clown and his ministers that do not possess the ability to add up.
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In your last post you asked about the huge dilemma for the vast majority of Labour MPs who referred to Corbyn as useless and a clown last year and said they would have to crawl back with their tails between their legs. Which implies that you no longer think Corbyn is a clown - but now you say he is ????? We do not know as yet whether Corbyn is a clown or not - but we do know that the Tories are presenting us with a succession of them - the latest managing to throw away the Tories first majority in 18 years - unneedlessly and only 10 days before Britain's most important negotiations ever. Which 'clown' are you going to replace her with ? Boris (never let the truth get in the way of a good story) Johnson ? The country would be a laughing stock if that happened. Osborne was wrong in saying that May is a dead person walking - this description describes the whole party.
 
superhorns said:
The government, with Theresa May or her successor, does speak for the majority as the leader of the chosen political party, no other party came close in the number of seats. The Tory party are excellent in rallying round when required, they will do everything to avoid the chance of the country being ruined by the Labour clown and his ministers that do not possess the ability to add up.
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Noted that you call JC a clown... so it is acceptable is it to use such terms???

What does that make YOU???
 
oldfrenchhorn said:
Surely you are not deserting her in her hour of need by even contemplating that she might be out of office. It is no longer the Tory party who are in control of events, they will have to bend to the will of others. As you well know the system works in the way it does, and the policies have been rejected.
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The Tories won the election, its policies were considered preferential by the electorate. The Tory party had its largest percentage of votes in decades. It saw off the challenges of UKIP and the Lib Dems, in addition the Tories had the best result in Scotland for 40 years.

Even without the involvement of the DUP the manifesto would have been adjusted to remove the obvious policies which failed to excite or even concern the voters. They can do nothing to prevent the Labour Party offering unaffordable bribes, it is up to the electorate to work that out.

There is disappointment in being able to increase the Tory majority but many, including you, are reading too much negativity into the situation. Cameron managed to last five years in a similar situation.
 
superhorns said:
The Tories won the election, its policies were considered preferential by the electorate. The Tory party had its largest percentage of votes in decades. It saw off the challenges of UKIP and the Lib Dems, in addition the Tories had the best result in Scotland for 40 years.

Even without the involvement of the DUP the manifesto would have been adjusted to remove the obvious policies which failed to excite or even concern the voters. They can do nothing to prevent the Labour Party offering unaffordable bribes, it is up to the electorate to work that out.

There is disappointment in being able to increase the Tory majority but many, including you, are reading too much negativity into the situation. Cameron managed to last five years in a similar situation.
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A number of inaccuracies here.
1) The Tories did not win the election. No party did.
2) The term bribe is unfortunate. Most of their manifesto was actually a return to policies that had worked in the past. The biggest being the imposition of HE fees by the previous coalition govt. I guess fox hunting was a bribe in that case then?
3) Cameron had more seats and a formal coalition... so quite different from the deal May and the DUP are trying to stitch together at the mo,. May says she is not going for a coalition.


The situation is parlous for the UK.
 
colognehornet said:
In your last post you asked about the huge dilemma for the vast majority of Labour MPs who referred to Corbyn as useless and a clown last year and said they would have to crawl back with their tails between their legs. Which implies that you no longer think Corbyn is a clown - but now you say he is ????? We do not know as yet whether Corbyn is a clown or not - but we do know that the Tories are presenting us with a succession of them - the latest managing to throw away the Tories first majority in 18 years - unneedlessly and only 10 days before Britain's most important negotiations ever. Which 'clown' are you going to replace her with ? Boris (never let the truth get in the way of a good story) Johnson ? The country would be a laughing stock if that happened. Osborne was wrong in saying that May is a dead person walking - this description describes the whole party.
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The issue is do the vast majority of Labour MPs that thought Corbyn was useless now have a different view. ? There are two newspaper reports this morning. One stating that former senior Labour MPs are attempting to creep back in, the other stating they will not be welcome.

If there is a leadership challenge in the Tory Party I would prefer Davis to Johnson. Unlike Labour, the Tories have an abundance of experienced talent to chose from. As far as I know they can all add up!!
 
yorkshirehornet said:
A number of inaccuracies here.
1) The Tories did not win the election. No party did.
2) The term bribe is unfortunate. Most of their manifesto was actually a return to policies that had worked in the past. The biggest being the imposition of HE fees by the previous coalition govt. I guess fox hunting was a bribe in that case then?
3) Cameron had more seats and a formal coalition... so quite different from the deal May and the DUP are trying to stitch together at the mo,. May says she is not going for a coalition.


The situation is parlous for the UK.
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The Tories won the election, they had the most seats so remain in office. The Labour Party lost for the third consecutive time. Abolishing student fees is a clear bribe, it is unaffordable as was much of the Labour manifesto.

You seem to have changed your views on coalition government, normally that is your preference?
 
The Tories DID win the election - they came first. But have you ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory?
When the dust settles we may find this election is the best result for the UK we could have had. Far from giving May power to run the EU negotiations exactly as she wants she will now have to listen to others - not least the DUP who want a soft brexit and no Irish border. I have no fear that any of the nasty religious inspired beliefs of the DUP supporters will spill into the rest of the UK. The DUP want a soft border, financial support and possibly even continuing winter allowance and a triple lock (both of these last two things are bad and an honest Labour party would have had the same policy to end them).
The Tories will have to listen to the mood of the country if they are to avoid another election soon - one that would probably see them go further backwards. So we could have five years of government where the Tories have to implement consensus policies - for me that is good.
Equally Labour have been prevented from forming a government that gave away £50b a year and increased annual borrowings again - something that as always with Labour ends in tears and would have led to an even longer and more severe Tory austerity government.

We should ask ourselves faced with the reality of this election result exactly what we expect. A Tory minority government, shackled, or another election in a country that is clearly election weary.
 
superhorns said:
The Tories won the election, they had the most seats so remain in office. The Labour Party lost for the third consecutive time. Abolishing student fees is a clear bribe, it is unaffordable as was much of the Labour manifesto.

You seem to have changed your views on coalition government, normally that is your preference?
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Is labour were in the same position would you still call it winning?

My preference will always be for consensus and middle ground... this left-right teetering is divisive...as we clearly see

Student fees were always affordable until the the Tories decided to market forces cost them..... Now HE institutions are expected to make a profit out of their customers... outrageous.
 
EdHorn said:
The Tories DID win the election - they came first. But have you ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory?
When the dust settles we may find this election is the best result for the UK we could have had. Far from giving May power to run the EU negotiations exactly as she wants she will now have to listen to others - not least the DUP who want a soft brexit and no Irish border. I have no fear that any of the nasty religious inspired beliefs of the DUP supporters will spill into the rest of the UK. The DUP want a soft border, financial support and possibly even continuing winter allowance and a triple lock (both of these last two things are bad and an honest Labour party would have had the same policy to end them).
The Tories will have to listen to the mood of the country if they are to avoid another election soon - one that would probably see them go further backwards. So we could have five years of government where the Tories have to implement consensus policies - for me that is good.
Equally Labour have been prevented from forming a government that gave away £50b a year and increased annual borrowings again - something that as always with Labour ends in tears and would have led to an even longer and more severe Tory austerity government.

We should ask ourselves faced with the reality of this election result exactly what we expect. A Tory minority government, shackled, or another election in a country that is clearly election weary.
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Sure a Pyyrhic victory perhaps... but Pyrrhus was killed in battle soon after..

Pyrrhic victory:
a victory that is not worth winning because the winner has lost so much in winning it

Interesting analysis of the potential outcome and the limitations the Tory Govt will have to operate under... and I do hope they learn from this and are more moderate in Govt.
 
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