General Election 4th July ...

[gelders pie]

Just a bit of musing on my part about our upcoming election.
All generalisations you understand, and based on Elections going back to when I started to take some interest in them, from Harold (You've Never had it SO GOOD) MacMillan/ Lord Home till now.

Firstly, just who is it that elects our Governments.
It isn't those who steadfastly vote the same way every time, out of loyalty to Family, Class or any other reason.
The parties, knowing that they can take these people for granted, do just that, then basically ignore them.
The ones that are responsible for the change are characterised by The Press and The Polls, as The Don't Know's
This group, almost by definition, tend to be middle of the road, politicly, and nervous of extremism. Most think of themselves as The Moderates. Their votes often go, not to the Party they like most, but to the Party they, at the time, dislike least.

The obvious point is that ALL governments get chucked out in the end.
The longer they have been able to hang on the harder the fall tends to be.
IF this logic prevails, The Tories are in for real drubbing this time out.
They should have lost last time out, but the 'Special Case' of Brexit and Corbyn gave them a five year bonus.

And following the change, what can we expect?
Well the things that we were promised will all be done immediately, wont be.
We will be told that the books show that we are in even more trouble that they thought.
Stand by for the new Battle Cry, 'Fourteen Years of Tory Misrule' to explain any lethargy from the new Incumbents.

After a while in Power, their extremists will start to agitate, (Right Wing for Tories, left wing and Unions for Labour).
Their MP's will find opportunities to profit from their proximity to the Seats of Power.
Some of the less clever will break the First Commandment in these circumstances, 'Thou Shalt NOT get caught'. So the get caught out, and we get, -----
SCANDALS.

And after a time the gravy train having reached it's allotted terminus, the whole thing will start again. All that will change will be the name of the ruling Party.

So will the change of Government make any real, substantial, difference to us?
My guess is NO, simply because it has happened only once in my lifetime and Mrs T got in because The Unions had become too powerful and had to be reigned back, (in the view of The Moderates).

There is a quote, attributed to many Politicians over the years, in one form or another,

‘All political lives, unless they are cut off in midstream at a happy juncture, end in failure, because that is the nature of politics and of human affairs.’

It is rather apt I think.

As you say ,Labour, ( assuming it’s them ) have a grace period where anything achieved will be down to how brilliant we are , anything not achieved will be because tories left us at minus 5 and it’s taking time to just get back up to zero

 

[SAFC2403]

As you say ,Labour, ( assuming it’s them ) have a grace period where anything achieved will be down to how brilliant we are , anything not achieved will be because tories left us at minus 5 and it’s taking time to just get back up to zero

Isnt that standard from all politicians? - take the credit themselve but blame those that came before them for any failures.

 

[gelders pie]

Isnt that standard from all politicians? - take the credit themselve but blame those that came before them for any failures.

Absolutely- the previous govt or the ''world''conditions

 

[polyphemus]

I think that’s another argument for changing the voting system. Minority voices even we don’t like what they’re saying should have one so they attach themselves to democracy not darker options and for it to work the balance of opinion should pull the lead/executive party in the right direction to reflect the voice of the people. It’s absolute nonsense that a ruling party should decide a voting system (and honours system) while they have a clear majority. I know the argument is it weakens decision making, I’d argue negotiation and listening strengthens democracy and provides hope.

Despite the undeniable logic of your argument, it's not one I can go along with.

PR for example has been shown to give weak, short lived, governments time after time.
Since 1946, France for example has had over forty Prime Ministers.
Italy has outshone them by having 66 different Governments over the same period.
Just look at Israel where a small group of small, extreeme, parties often hold the balance of power where the main parties get a similar number of Seats.
Their price for support can be seen on TV.
Scotlands rather odd system for their own parliament is a mixture of Pr and The Additional Members System.
I don't understand it, but we have seen that it CAN lead to a small party weilding power, way beyong their numerical suuport.

Despite all it's many faults, the first past the post, system will usualy proved an acceptable, normaly stable, Government.

 

[Pure River Slut]

Despite the undeniable logic of your argument, it's not one I can go along with.

PR for example has been shown to give weak, short lived, governments time after time.
Since 1946, France for example has had over forty Prime Ministers.
Italy has outshone them by having 66 different Governments over the same period.
Just look at Israel where a small group of small, extreeme, parties often hold the balance of power where the main parties get a similar number of Seats.
Their price for support can be seen on TV.
Scotlands rather odd system for their own parliament is a mixture of Pr and The Additional Members System.
I don't understand it, but we have seen that it CAN lead to a small party weilding power, way beyong their numerical suuport.

Despite all it's many faults, the first past the post, system will usualy proved an acceptable, normaly stable, Government.

Then moan we can’t because there is no reason for it to change

 

[polyphemus]

Then moan we can’t because there is no reason for it to change

I'm very willing to be convinced that there is a better system than First Past The Post, just show it to me,

In passing I'll mention the system used to elect The President of The US of A.
Five time the winner of the Electoral Collage Vote has reciever a lower 'Popular Vote, than his opponant.
The most recent time was in 2016 when Hilary Clinton the popular vote over
Donal Trump,

 

[Pure River Slut]

I'm very willing to be convinced that there is a better system than First Past The Post, just show it to me,

In passing I'll mention the system used to elect The President of The US of A.
Five time the winner of the Electoral Collage Vote has reciever a lower 'Popular Vote, than his opponant.
The most recent time was in 2016 when Hilary Clinton the popular vote over
Donal Trump,

First past the post also regularly gives us a system where less people have voted for the incumbents than the opposition and people can have a reasonable number of votes with no representation. I don’t think we should always think of whole term being a good thing. In this case 18 months and we were in bother.

 

[alcoauth]

I was always against PR because i think it essentially waters down the power of the ruling party and you end up with decisions being made on consensus rather than the full mandate needed to get things done, however I think the situation we are now in is so dire PR is the only conceivable way (unless there is a third way) to get new ideas into the public sphere for debate. I support PR but have been against it until very recently.

 

[DELETED ACCOUNT 1234]

I got my leaflet through from my local Tory candidate last night. Half of it was essentially "vote for us to reduce the Labour majority because Kier Starmer wants to spend loads and tax you."

I've heard it by numerous candidates on the news lately too, this is the line the party in Government is going for... Not "vote for us, here's what we can do positively for the country" but instead "we're going to lose but you should be scared of someone else having power."

It's pathetic and cowardly. Sort of rolling over but trying to weasel in at the same time. Absolutely nothing to offer to the public but fear.

 

[FellTop]

I got my leaflet through from my local Tory candidate last night. Half of it was essentially "vote for us to reduce the Labour majority because Kier Starmer wants to spend loads and tax you."

I've heard it by numerous candidates on the news lately too, this is the line the party in Government is going for... Not "vote for us, here's what we can do positively for the country" but instead "we're going to lose but you should be scared of someone else having power."

It's pathetic and cowardly. Sort of rolling over but trying to weasel in at the same time. Absolutely nothing to offer to the public but fear.

Sad times. Both main parties at it though. Spreading fear about the others because they struggle to stand behind their undeliverable manifestos.

The only party to actually knock on my door are the conservatives. We have a new candidate, after years of our last conservative MP. She was a very good local MP to be fair and I liked her, if not her party in recent years. The new guy seems smart, bright, humble, but maybe a bit naieve. That said, he is a local man and understands exactly our local problems and opportunities. Labour finally put up a candidate, who is managing to be neither seen nor heard and who does not even live in the area he is standing for. No local presence at all about his campaign, just the bland national leaflets coming via post. He may well get in as those I know wont vote conservative anymore, but whether he will be a worthwhile local MP time will tell. The choice here isnt exactly encouraging...

 

[TopCat.]

2 days left of those Tory ****ers.

 

[Grizzled Wanderer]

I got my leaflet through from my local Tory candidate last night. Half of it was essentially "vote for us to reduce the Labour majority because Kier Starmer wants to spend loads and tax you."

I've heard it by numerous candidates on the news lately too, this is the line the party in Government is going for... Not "vote for us, here's what we can do positively for the country" but instead "we're going to lose but you should be scared of someone else having power."

It's pathetic and cowardly. Sort of rolling over but trying to weasel in at the same time. Absolutely nothing to offer to the public but fear.

I say let's have a supermajority. No excuses then, just like Johnson had no excuses with his majority.

Then maybe the penny will drop with the electorate. Whoever you vote for, the government always gets in

 

[rooch 3]

I say let's have a supermajority. No excuses then, just like Johnson had no excuses with his majority.

Then maybe the penny will drop with the electorate. Whoever you vote for, the government always gets in

Exactly how i think, nobody to blame if you do s hit and also you get all the praise if you do well. Couldn’t care less which party it is.

 

[gelders pie]

I got my leaflet through from my local Tory candidate last night. Half of it was essentially "vote for us to reduce the Labour majority because Kier Starmer wants to spend loads and tax you."

I've heard it by numerous candidates on the news lately too, this is the line the party in Government is going for... Not "vote for us, here's what we can do positively for the country" but instead "we're going to lose but you should be scared of someone else having power."

It's pathetic and cowardly. Sort of rolling over but trying to weasel in at the same time. Absolutely nothing to offer to the public but fear.

A leaflet ? What’s that? I have had none . Still no posters in windows. Know nothing of any of the 7. I am going to draw a number from 1-7 and vote for that number in the list . If they win , I’ll let them know my vote was only chance , but whoever it is I’m going straight to them to ask local intentions

 

[Smug in Boots]

I had a knock on the door from a Tory activist who said Labour would find a way to tax everything ...

... What, even Sunak's wife

 

[Blond Bombshell]

I had a knock on the door from a Tory activist who said Labour would find a way to tax everything ...

... What, even Sunak's wife

Boom boom bang bang

 

[COYCS]

Sad times. Both main parties at it though. Spreading fear about the others because they struggle to stand behind their undeliverable manifestos.

The only party to actually knock on my door are the conservatives. We have a new candidate, after years of our last conservative MP. She was a very good local MP to be fair and I liked her, if not her party in recent years. The new guy seems smart, bright, humble, but maybe a bit naieve. That said, he is a local man and understands exactly our local problems and opportunities. Labour finally put up a candidate, who is managing to be neither seen nor heard and who does not even live in the area he is standing for. No local presence at all about his campaign, just the bland national leaflets coming via post. He may well get in as those I know wont vote conservative anymore, but whether he will be a worthwhile local MP time will tell. The choice here isnt exactly encouraging...

Strange, that the candidate doesn't live local, we had a by election here a few months back, she has not been since. Local Labour party members been moaning about her.
The wife (yes) that's her initials BTW has decided to vote, no idea who for yet.

 

[FellTop]

Strange, that the candidate doesn't live local, we had a by election here a few months back, she has not been since. Local Labour party members been moaning about her.
The wife (yes) that's her initials BTW has decided to vote, no idea who for yet.

I have noticed a bit of a thing where candidates move around to regions where they might stand a chance. I do hope the days of local people representing local people arent going. Not sure what it all means, but not having any motivation on local issues cant be helpful. We have 7 candidates on our ballot, and by my reckoning 3 are from outside the electoral boundary.

 

[Pure River Slut]

I had a knock on the door from a Tory activist who said Labour would find a way to tax everything ...

... What, even Sunak's wife

If we taxed Tory donors fairly they wouldn’t be Tory donors

 

[alcoauth]

I have noticed a bit of a thing where candidates move around to regions where they might stand a chance. I do hope the days of local people representing local people arent going. Not sure what it all means, but not having any motivation on local issues cant be helpful. We have 7 candidates on our ballot, and by my reckoning 3 are from outside the electoral boundary.

I have a feeling the current disdain will help breed a new generation of politician, imagine a proper local politician who could speak well and be forthright about the problem sthe country is facing, he would landslide these career politician types.