Gaston and the alternatives

[ImpSaint]

We get your point, but why put the aggressive rhetorical question at the end. It's as if you want confrontational disagreement which contradicts everything you say. If you want people to respect your opinion, you've got to atleast try to understand theirs and not discount it with your own.

Edit: It's not only you doing it, just seems to be the only thing that happens on this forum these days!

It works both ways. Was suggested yesterday that we won how can we criticise anyone. Wonder if Stoke fans said that (*prior ro 2013) I bet not. Thats the beauty of forums but at the moment any mention of Ramirez not been someone's favourite at the mo is returned tenfold by aggressive posts saying that the person who dared to criticise Ramirez doesn't know jot about football.

Then the week after those same posters that said Ramirez needs more time and we should be patient will be moaning that Wellbeck has had enough time and should be dropped form the England squad.

 

[AshbySaint]

Ramirez is a good player and, if his finishing was improved, we wouldn't be talking about him like this. He has the requisite skills and I'm still hopeful that Mauricio and the coaches can improve him. Hard to talk about the others as they play for different teams with different styles. He is young (and therefore has a good sell on value) and we had to pay near the top end to get him here.

P.s. Nice that he went up to Nigel and shook his hand after the game.

I agree with you Fran! Especially as he hasn't really sampled all the high times with the promotions as he hasn't been around for that long

 

[RLSGM]

It works both ways. Was suggested yesterday that we won how can we criticise anyone. Wonder if Stoke fans said that (*prior ro 2013) I bet not. Thats the beauty of forums but at the moment any mention of Ramirez not been someone's favourite at the mo is returned tenfold by aggressive posts saying that the person who dared to criticise Ramirez doesn't know jot about football.

Then the week after those same posters that said Ramirez needs more time and we should be patient will be moaning that Wellbeck has had enough time and should be dropped form the England squad.

Oh, I know, everyone on here seems to be doing it at the moment! I would agree that Ramirez has probably not warranted a first team slot on current form, but he still needs to chances in order to prove himself as he has obvious quality! One off game does not make him a bad player. Yeah i know people are returning aggressive comments too! Its just getting a little out of hand i feel!

Well i think we can make exception for Welbeck hahaa.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Sometimes it seems like it's the same posters but it really isn't. I don't think you are being picked on nearly as much as you think. At the same time, I do agree that there have been people like yourself who have offered reasoned opinions on Ramirez who are getting lumped in with others who are much less reasonable.

The problem with this thread really, is who started it.

aw hell, why beat around the bush?

Some people don't like Ramirez because they're racist. It shows in their posts and that's what everyone is reacting to but trying to be polite and not say it.

 

[rabbitspectrum]

Ramirez seems like a nerd to me, probably our least cool player apart from SKD. He clearly has immense ability he is just down on confidence. Once he gets his confidence back he will improve although I reckon it will take quite a long time before we see Ramirez at his best for Southampton. He has been getting in the right positions and playing some good balls but that's his natural ability pulling him through rather than an understanding of how his team mates work directing his play.

It's so hard to judge how good he is because he hasn't played a quality 90 minutes this year from memory. Someone mentioned the Aston Villa game and said others played better than him, I disagree none played better than Gaston that day. If he can play a few games like that everyone will be saying he is our best player. Which I think he is anyway despite a long run of sub-par form, and a season long run of great from from Schneiderlin and Lambert.

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Someone mentioned the Aston Villa game and said others played better than him, I disagree none played better than Gaston that day.

He OWNED that game. That was as fine as performance as we've seen from any Saint this season, right up there with Lambert's best. Someone rated him a "6" that game, said all he did and ever does was a couple of fancy dribbles and give the ball away and we should drop him. I think that was his very first start.

 

[ImpSaint]

Someone mentioned the Aston Villa game and said others played better than him, I disagree none played better than Gaston that day. If he can play a few games like that everyone will be saying he is our best player. Which I think he is anyway despite a long run of sub-par form, and a season long run of great from from Schneiderlin and Lambert.

That Villa game the Clyne moving to the left created an awesome triangle of Lambert, Clyne and Lallana and they were involved in all the first 3 goals. which all came through the left side of the field. That gave Ramirez masses of space in the centre and hey presto he can play well. It also pulled Puncheon over into the centre too though and at one point he was on the left too, BUT we aren't giving that space in the middle now with Rodriguez/Lambert swapping in the centre so the tactics have changed

Those 3 Lambert, Clyne and Lallana were the MOM on that Villa game with an honourable mention to Gaston

I think he's a good player. I guess it also gives Saints some credibility to have a player of his quality no being in the team every week too, not to mention that if he is the 'next Messi' then come the summer that might me we can sign some of the other 'next Messi's'.

Hopefully the pacy CB 'next Messi's'. lol

 

[#42]

It's so hard to judge how good he is because he hasn't played a quality 90 minutes this year from memory. Someone mentioned the Aston Villa game and said others played better than him, I disagree none played better than Gaston that day. .

He played 90 minutes against Villa. I thought Lambert was the best player that game though. That's no fault on Ramirez' part.. I think it was probably Lambert's best game of the season. Ramirez played very well though and was the second best attacker for me. Something he did differently in that game was play a lot more short passes. He was like a deep lying playmaker pulling the strings.

 

[ImpSaint]

Oh well let's chill with a classic
[video=youtube;H8gKmQ6Hrro]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8gKmQ6Hrro[/video]

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Here's a thought for a "Gaston alternative."

One of the things a lot of posters (and I tend to somewhat agree) is that JWP is sort of a classic, box-to-box type. And as a result he doesn't fit into the side because we don't play a central midfielder in our present formation. But actually, Davis to me plays a classic midfielder game as well.

I have felt that at times, Ramirez gets forward a little too early. I also feel like our spacing has been better as of recent games. And maybe that is because Ramirez is playing like an AMC and moreover given a free role. I also sometimes felt like Ramirez came back too far on defense. It enabled him to get the ball, but not get into the attack. I put this in our defense at the time being bad and needing support so Ramirez was just trying to help out.

But Davis seems to play the role as staying in the center of the pitch serving as a link up between Cork/Schneiderlin and the strikers. He does get into the box, but I wonder if he also sits in more of a support role on offense than Ramirez. As a result, players always know where he is and what he will do. The "free role" seems to be given more to Lambert now.

So anyway, perhaps JWP does have a place in the squad playing the AMC role just the way Davis does.

 

[fatletiss]

It is garbage because virtually no-one is saying 'get rid' Most (like me) are quite simply saying that at the moment his form only warrants being a squad player and not first 11. Thats our opinion.

And yes if someone offers what we paid and some of us say we would accept it then what is people's problem with that. Its our opinion and of equal merit to others who are prepared to give him more time. We're prepared to give him more time but if an offer comes up in the summer what's the problem in us saying we would accept it?

The problem is the Gaston at all costs fan club who reads posts then simply put a dividing line in the keep/Get rid camp. That is the garbage. I'm pretty open minded from the keep to the give time through to the sell him point of view. Definitely not going to say that he should be given a start every week ahead of others at the mo.

Lallana is a better player though and also playing better <------My opinion

Ah so now it sounds like its garbage because its different to your opinion. If you trawl through all the threads on this topic, you will see my defence started, because someone DID say "crap" and "get rid".

I didn't say your opinion was garbage, so why is my opinion garbage?

 

[fatletiss]

And you are entitled to your opinion. After Godders spitting his false teeth out about anyone who dare say negatives about the chosen one then I am not carrying on with any reasoned debate over who is playing better or not. I think Lallana will be in the first 11 next year. Thats my opinion. I'm not adding ANY supporting evidence as it will be swarmed on by the 'Gaston must play' lot.

I'm actually feeling 5% sympathy for GMI at the moment!!!

Oh Impsaint this post has shown real ignorance of my opinion I am afraid. I think I have been the loudest defender of Ramirez but not once have I said Ramirez MUST play. Infact I debated that Davis should have started v Liverpool. All through this debate I have only defended his ability and when people have slagged him off. Read back carefully and you will see this to be true. I think you have just dived in with assumptions.

Using terms like "the Gaston must play brigade" tells me you have run out of debate and will not accept a different opinion. Debates don't normally end when someone says they won't comment anymore and take their toys away.

For the record. I think Ramirez is a top quality player. I do not think he MUST start every game. Players the manager thinks right based on form and tactics should be picked.

However, I will defend a player when, in my opinion, they are being singled out for unnecessary stick. I felt Ramirez has been getting this from some people.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

I'm sure Mauricio is very happy to have to decide between a group of good midfielders for every game. He doesn't have to fall on his sword if one gets injured. I'm also sure that getting rid of Ramirez hasn't even crossed his mind...he would do that totally confused look of his if this was suggested at a press conference.

 

[trixter_whufc]

Jarvis was 7.5m with 2.5m in potential add ons.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

The money we paid for Gaston was big for us, but quality players cost...especially if you really want him and the other club holds all the cards. Like AOC, Gaston had to throw a wobbler to get it pushed through. And his agent gave up his cut He's had a bad injury...he could have lost his leg with that extremely nasty and very painful injury and he had a bereavement. Let's see how he does next season with a, hopefully, injury free run.

 

[saintern]

It is interesting peoples views, I feel for a young player to move country, culture, not speaking fluent language he has done as I expected. Flashes of brilliance, and a bit frustrating. I feel next season we will see the true Gaston. He does have fight in him, he works hard when he plays, he has still scored 4 premier league goals which isnt bad for the pitch time he has had. He had a horrible injury earlier in season when he was flying at that point, he destroyed Villa at St Marys and the through ball for Jay Rod sat (when he hit bar) was a very intelligent pass which not many players would have seen or executed to that perfection.

Fact is, he is quality, and he will come good.

 

[Lovelocum]

Ramirez seems like a nerd to me, probably our least cool player apart from SKD. He clearly has immense ability he is just down on confidence. Once he gets his confidence back he will improve although I reckon it will take quite a long time before we see Ramirez at his best for Southampton. He has been getting in the right positions and playing some good balls but that's his natural ability pulling him through rather than an understanding of how his team mates work directing his play.

It's so hard to judge how good he is because he hasn't played a quality 90 minutes this year from memory. Someone mentioned the Aston Villa game and said others played better than him, I disagree none played better than Gaston that day. If he can play a few games like that everyone will be saying he is our best player. Which I think he is anyway despite a long run of sub-par form, and a season long run of great from from Schneiderlin and Lambert.

A nerd- based on what? And why does your opinion on whether he is 'cool' matter? I don't get that bit at all.

 

[ImpSaint]

Here's a thought for a "Gaston alternative."

One of the things a lot of posters (and I tend to somewhat agree) is that JWP is sort of a classic, box-to-box type. And as a result he doesn't fit into the side because we don't play a central midfielder in our present formation. But actually, Davis to me plays a classic midfielder game as well.

I have felt that at times, Ramirez gets forward a little too early. I also feel like our spacing has been better as of recent games. And maybe that is because Ramirez is playing like an AMC and moreover given a free role. I also sometimes felt like Ramirez came back too far on defense. It enabled him to get the ball, but not get into the attack. I put this in our defense at the time being bad and needing support so Ramirez was just trying to help out.

But Davis seems to play the role as staying in the center of the pitch serving as a link up between Cork/Schneiderlin and the strikers. He does get into the box, but I wonder if he also sits in more of a support role on offense than Ramirez. As a result, players always know where he is and what he will do. The "free role" seems to be given more to Lambert now.

So anyway, perhaps JWP does have a place in the squad playing the AMC role just the way Davis does.

Maybe I haven't explained what I think very well but the above is about the same as my view. Lambert is playing No10,Davis is much better suited than Ramirez with that being the case.

All through this debate I have only defended his ability and when people have slagged him off. Read back carefully and you will see this to be true. I think you have just dived in with assumptions.

Using terms like "the Gaston must play brigade" tells me you have run out of debate and will not accept a different opinion. Debates don't normally end when someone says they won't comment anymore and take their toys away.

Maybe I am jumping to assumptions but I have never said anything about his ability. Like you I have said that Davis should be in. Maybe differently to you I am open to quality players not always working out and even with Cortese's impatience to dominate world football I may see the 'settling in period' as being much much shorter, but that's not questioning the guys ability. Just questioning whether he is right for us at this moment in time with our objectives etc.

The problem is that if anyone questions Ramirez starting or that something doesn't work (yes there are some who say he is rubbish but not many) then we all get lumped in the 'idiot box' together.

For me, if he doesn't hit the ground running next season he'll be gone and replaced in January. Maybe we are on such a trajectory that it will be the Liverpool and Tottenham's that buy the Ramirez's and after they have a good season Cortese pays £25m for a player already acclimitized?

The guy has talent and ability in spades. I am not questioning that at alll.

 

[SAINTDON13]

There are tweets being bandied about that Gaston has bought a house in Southampton, so looks like he may be staying for a little while longer or is trying his hand at housing development?

 

[Channon walked on H2O]

There are tweets being bandied about that Gaston has bought a house in Southampton, so looks like he may be staying for a little while longer or is trying his hand at housing development?

Is it big enough or his "ego"?

I'd worry of he didn't have an ego. All successful sports people have an ego - they want to win and show themselves to be the best. It's an essential part of being a competitor. Having an ego is apparently a trait to be despised. Not from me it's not. I want to see Gaston acting like he owns the pitch when he plays for us. He's not quite at the races yet, but he is a real talent. When we finish top 8 and win a Cup next year he will play a significant part. You heard to here first, folks. An old Saint has caught optimism!