French GP Chat & Predictions
- Thread starter Big Ern
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Watch the race yourself and suffer like the rest of us?
You're supposed to look out for your fellow not606er.... Not make them suffer cruel and unusual punishment.
he's not been watching close enough for the past 5 years.
I've decided in my own little head thst
a) refuelling must return
b) drs sticky plaster must be ripped off.
c) if they can't make tyre that can be driven hard on then force 2 stops.
d) change engine rules to enable actual racing. sorry but if 3 a season is rule they people will save them. make engines quarter the cost and use em up.
e) for god sake fix aero
I miss teams putting low fuel in and getting up grid and then racing hard.
I miss the teams having more than just let's run the medium tyre to crawl into q3 as a strategy.
hmm let's drive half way on mediums, saving engine and fuel then just to mix it up let's put on hard tyres and drive even slower to flag.
I don't know how people can say it was boring.
Here's me, and all I'd done was stare at the empty track for 5 minutes.
Here's me, and all I'd done was stare at the empty track for 5 minutes.
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I hope the likes of merc Honda etc move to fe.then cosworth ilmor come back with affordable v8's.
Sadly though I think nothing will change .
How quickly people forget.
…For a moment, let's forget the potential dangers of refuelling, Apart from reducing the responsibility of a driver's result from his own actions (due to the relative increase in responsibility from the pit crew), refuelling meant very little happened on track because it was more easily achieved in the pit lane. Refuelling was one of the worst things to happen to F1 in the modern era. The consequent lack of overtaking caused a reaction from fans which directly lead to the sticky-plasters you criticise: DRS and fragile tyres.
"Aero" cannot be un-learned. As it is, the rules surrounding it have been constantly updated in an effort to thwart the runaway effect of development - which wealthier teams will always have an advantage with in any case - as well as a practical attempt to accommodate real, existing circuits.
"Change rules to enable actual racing" ?? Please; give us a clue! -And as you impart your wisdom, consider the ramifications of the actual words and definitions you come up with - and hone them until they are watertight, foolproof and absolutely unambiguous.
It's easy to criticise isn't it? But I assure you that finding the right solution / formula which ticks all of everyone's boxes, is not just difficult but absolutely impossible (as you will see when you write out your considered ideas).
Indeed, refuelling itself could be considered a knee-jerk reaction to the 'purer' circumstances beforehand. And so, it never ends…
I thought about that on refuelling then thought to myself.... yeah there was a few near misses but it wasnt too bad.
a) it was banned in the 1980s and the conserving came in.
b) it was reintroduced in 1994.
why are you SO angry?
I just made a comment, no need to bite my head off. I did say out of my own little head, meaning i was just looking at what unfolded yesterday and comparing it to years gone by for me.... or is making a comment now not allowed on this part of the site?
Angry? Not at all. I'm sorry you've got that impression, Mito. It was certainly not my intention.
My post is meant as a demonstration that there is no easy-fix. It is also a reality check on the misguided notion that re-introducing refuelling would somehow improve the spectacle whilst reducing the onus on the driver to achieve something on track through driving skill. Refuelling undermined the need for racecraft - the very thing the public wanted to see more evidence of!
My post is meant as a demonstration that there is no easy-fix. It is also a reality check on the misguided notion that re-introducing refuelling would somehow improve the spectacle whilst reducing the onus on the driver to achieve something on track through driving skill. Refuelling undermined the need for racecraft - the very thing the public wanted to see more evidence of!
Bit late to add my opinion, but I did ignore the mercs yesterday and focused more on what was going on behind, doing that made the race bearable.
However as a consequence, I missed what happened to Bottas who went to being 11 secs (approx) behind after his pit stop from something nearer 5 to 6 secs before. The stop was 0.7 secs longer than Lewis but was it just the undercut? I am disappointed with Bottas, he gave up, or at least that is the impression. He might be only second but he should still push. I fear he sees Lewis as an insurmountable hurdle, but he can't act defeated.
Hope I missed something more than attitude.
OK, maybe it was engine conservation but I doubt. Lewis, I would have thought, took his foot off the peddle with such a lead yet it kept increasing. I fear the old Bottas is back.
However as a consequence, I missed what happened to Bottas who went to being 11 secs (approx) behind after his pit stop from something nearer 5 to 6 secs before. The stop was 0.7 secs longer than Lewis but was it just the undercut? I am disappointed with Bottas, he gave up, or at least that is the impression. He might be only second but he should still push. I fear he sees Lewis as an insurmountable hurdle, but he can't act defeated.
Hope I missed something more than attitude.
OK, maybe it was engine conservation but I doubt. Lewis, I would have thought, took his foot off the peddle with such a lead yet it kept increasing. I fear the old Bottas is back.
Refuelling was stopped as it become very predictable and just like now everyone worked out what the optimum strategy was, so there was little variety.
Pre-DRS, everyone complained there was no overtaking as cars could not run close enough to each other. DRS solved that (or be it artificially) but they still haven't got it right as it is clear in some circuits it is too easy and passing is almost a mockery.
As for aero, it will always be a problem, and always has been. We yearn for the side-by-side racing of the past, yet very few can find anything other than the odd clip of it and then the nostalgia kicks in. There is decent side-by-side racing at a lot of circuits, and if a montage was done on it season by season then we'd all think F1 was great again.
Engine rules, again has there ever been complete parity between engines, and if there was why would manufacturers plough in millions of pounds to produce a product that had to be artificially altered to make it worse for the sake of parity? 80's turbos, 3.5 na era and then 3.0 V10 and 2.4 V8 era all had dominant engines at various points, or in RBR's case an engine they made work with their aero which no one else could.
So, we're back to the debate of what do you want from F1? Close racing and being at the pinnacle of racing technology is never going to work in the same formula. No one wants 'stock cars and engines as you then have Indycar, so everyone may as well just buy off the shelf, which inhibits technological progress.
You then have to look at the circuits themselves. Most have been sanitised compared to some of the great tracks or original incarnations of existing tracks for safety reasons. The cars are now so good that few represent a real challenge to drivers, despite what they say. Spa in a 1985 Brabham BMW (turbo lag, narrow power bands etc) is scary compared to 2019. in a Mercedes.
There has never been an answer to solve F1 completely and there never will. Someone will always find a competitive edge, legally or not!
Cosi is completely right about the dangers of nostalgically fantasising about refuelling, it was terrible and dramatically reduced the on-track battling we so desperately need to see. Strategic variety is much better achieved with tyres.
Slight point though. DRS and high wear tyres were introduced because even without refuelling the racing still wasn't good enough in 2010. Cars getting stuck for the whole race was very common and famously decided the championship. The best dry race of that year being Canada where Bridgestone accidentally caused chaos with high wear tyres.
The poor racing that year is also why removing DRS altogether would be insane, cars with much less downforce than today couldn't pass each other.
As for the future. Whilst the devil is in the detail, I would say that reversing the direction of the last few years would be a good start. Shorter, narrower cars with less downforce. The 2009-2016 aero regulations were much better for racing. So long as F1 is still miles faster than any other series, I don't think we have to worry about losing 2 seconds of lap time. Personally, in my inevitably somewhat controversial opinion, we should also bring back high wear tyres. 95% of one-stop races end up being very dull. Grass or gravel runoffs would also help a lot but that's a lost cause.
With the engines, they were an awful change in 2014, but right now we seem to be a close as we've gotten to the relative parity of the V8 engines. Ferrari has finally overhauled the Mercedes advantage there. One concern I do have is with how crucial engine mapping is with these hybrids, and the reports of works teams withholding engine settings from their customers. There's an interview with the former Lotus team principal talking about Mercedes giving them a special engine mode to catch Vettel in Spa 2015, then never being able to use it again.
Tentatively I'd say the proposed 2021 regulations look to be a step in the right direction, unfortunately, there's quite a lot of pushback on any significant change.
Slight point though. DRS and high wear tyres were introduced because even without refuelling the racing still wasn't good enough in 2010. Cars getting stuck for the whole race was very common and famously decided the championship. The best dry race of that year being Canada where Bridgestone accidentally caused chaos with high wear tyres.
The poor racing that year is also why removing DRS altogether would be insane, cars with much less downforce than today couldn't pass each other.
As for the future. Whilst the devil is in the detail, I would say that reversing the direction of the last few years would be a good start. Shorter, narrower cars with less downforce. The 2009-2016 aero regulations were much better for racing. So long as F1 is still miles faster than any other series, I don't think we have to worry about losing 2 seconds of lap time. Personally, in my inevitably somewhat controversial opinion, we should also bring back high wear tyres. 95% of one-stop races end up being very dull. Grass or gravel runoffs would also help a lot but that's a lost cause.
With the engines, they were an awful change in 2014, but right now we seem to be a close as we've gotten to the relative parity of the V8 engines. Ferrari has finally overhauled the Mercedes advantage there. One concern I do have is with how crucial engine mapping is with these hybrids, and the reports of works teams withholding engine settings from their customers. There's an interview with the former Lotus team principal talking about Mercedes giving them a special engine mode to catch Vettel in Spa 2015, then never being able to use it again.
Tentatively I'd say the proposed 2021 regulations look to be a step in the right direction, unfortunately, there's quite a lot of pushback on any significant change.
Some good stuff in there.
The tyres one is always controversial. In the past there were complaints that the tyres were made from chewing gum, didn't last and therefore drivers were not pushing because they had to look after them too much.
Currently they don't seem to wear enough, or compounds vary dramatically between tracks and don't wear as intended.
It is again something to which there is no definite answer to solve the problem.
On tyres, it's too rare that there's multiple viable strategies, which is a shame. "Qualify on the softs, run to the end on the mediums" probably accounts for 90% of strategies. I'd quite like to see the rule for two tyre compounds in a race scrapped, as well as the need for a pitstop. If Williams want to run a 0 stop strategy at Monaco, let them.
Some of the Parc Ferme rule suggestions floating around look interesting. Will Buxton was bemoaning in France that Sainz could change his floor and plank after quali due to damage, whilst Vettel changed the Intercooler pump, oil pump, radiators, spark plugs, ignition coils, brake caliper sensors -all without penalty. To him (and me), that's ridiculous, and not Parc Ferme. You can't argue that changing the spark plugs is a safety issue, you should be forced to risk unreliability, or take a grid penalty. The near-bulletproof reliability of modern F1 already removes some of the excitement of yesteryear, it's not helped when teams are apparently given free-reign to change like-for-like. Earlier in the season, Mercedes even got a free pass for changing parts that weren't like-for-like under Parc Ferme, because there was no obvious performance gain.
Another suggestion is to scrutineer on Fridays and only allow like-for-like changes from FP1 onwards. So if you bring an upgrade and it doesn't work, you're stuffed. Could be an interesting way to shake things up.
Some of the Parc Ferme rule suggestions floating around look interesting. Will Buxton was bemoaning in France that Sainz could change his floor and plank after quali due to damage, whilst Vettel changed the Intercooler pump, oil pump, radiators, spark plugs, ignition coils, brake caliper sensors -all without penalty. To him (and me), that's ridiculous, and not Parc Ferme. You can't argue that changing the spark plugs is a safety issue, you should be forced to risk unreliability, or take a grid penalty. The near-bulletproof reliability of modern F1 already removes some of the excitement of yesteryear, it's not helped when teams are apparently given free-reign to change like-for-like. Earlier in the season, Mercedes even got a free pass for changing parts that weren't like-for-like under Parc Ferme, because there was no obvious performance gain.
Another suggestion is to scrutineer on Fridays and only allow like-for-like changes from FP1 onwards. So if you bring an upgrade and it doesn't work, you're stuffed. Could be an interesting way to shake things up.
Seems I'm in a minority in that Ioved the re-fuelling . It added da ger and another thing that could throw a spanner in the works if the teams cocked up . Verstappen famous incident was because benetton buggered about with the valve iirc.
IF people want everything equal across the board in F1, the only thing would be to give everybody a Mercedes, or give everybody a Williams... If after that one driver still keeps winning, then you have to dig deeper into science....CLONING!!!!
There's still one record Hamilton is a long way off grabbing, consecutive podium finishes. Schumacher managed 17 of those in F1's golden years.
