Frankel's Form

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The only people who knock New Approach Ron are the people who backed Ravens Pass in the Dewhurst, Tartan Bearer in the Derby and probably done there dough on New Approach in the Guineas in between <laugh>

New Approach will always be my favourite horse even though I rate him just below Sea The Stars and Zarkava, on his day I think he would certainly have given them a decent race. He was already crying out for a trip in the Dewhurst and still only went down a nose to a top class miler in Henrythenavigator in the Guineas, he was up in another stride, Henry loved the firm ground and was exceptional when winning the Irish but although New Approach should not have run that day, it was a blessing in disguise as had he went straight from Newmarket, he would not have been available at 6/1 in the Derby. The defeat in Ireland probably fooled alot of people into thinking he wasnt that special, I knew early in his 2yo season that he was a champion and I duly put everything I had on him, ive never been so certain of anything in my life that I was that he would win the Derby. Not many champion 2yos go on to win the Derby and he will always be underrated, being around the same time as Zarkava and Sea The Stars probably dosent help, I prefer it that way anyway, New Approach diehards are a special breed and what we lack in numbers, we make up for with an unusually powerful and unshakeable belief in the horse.

New Approach, Zarkava, Sea The Stars and Frankel are all equally unique champions in their own ways and we are lucky to have seen them in such a short period of time.

Some people may not agree that he should be in the same sentence with the other 3, those people are wrong <ok>
 
Hi ya Swanny. We might live on the far side of the planet, but we're not out of the media loop. <laugh> Frankel is a super star of the brightest magnitude, there can be no doubting of his pure class. He's the best thing to come out of Yorkshire since Geoff Boycott and some sort of pudding thingy.<whistle>
 
I remember a line from the 2000 guineas

"No excuses from here" in regards to New Approach who had everything go right for him but was done by a brilliant turn of foot and also a battle that Henry loved. His guineas win was fantastic considering where he come from in the field and for me was value for more than a nose. He was the better miler whether it be a nose winning distance and NA having excuses in Ireland so be it the fact is NA didn't even win over a mile so even having this conversation is beyond madness.

New Approach was a fantastic horse. His 2yo form was very good and having just watched a replay of the National Stakes he certainly looked to be handling the "good to firm" ground when quickening away from Rio De La Plata. I see you knocked this form but Rio De La Plata was regarded as one of the very best 2yos at the time having won his maiden by 5 lengths and the Vintage (Group 2 ) by a comfortable 2 lengths - alright that didn't turn out to be a great renewal but he did win a Grp 1 after his defeat by NA.

But I suppose it wasn't ideal ground for his fan boys when he got beat off Duke Of Marmalade and Phoenix Tower in the Juddmonte or did he have a valid excuse ? seem to remember Arkle complaining about the lay off ?
 
Updated:


Maiden
11 opponents
0 previous winners
8 subsequent winners (from 11 runners)
3 subsequent Group horses (G1 Nathaniel, G1 Colour Vision , G3 Genius Beast)

Conditions
2 opponents
1 previous winner
1 subsequent winner (from 1 runner)

Royal Lodge
4 opponents
4 previous winners
1 previous Listed winner (Klammer)
3 subsequent winners (from 3 runners)
3 subsequent Group horses (G1 Treasure Beach, G2 Slim Shady, G3 Klammer)

Dewhurst
5 opponents
4 previous winners
3 previous Group winners (G3 New Greenfield, G2 Saamidd, G1 Dream Ahead)
4 subsequent winners (from 5 runners)
2 subsequent Group winners (G1 Roderic O&#8217;Connor, G1 Dream Ahead)

Greenham
5 opponents
5 previous winners
1 Previous Group winner (G2 Strong Suit, also G1 placed)
3 subsequent winners (from 5 runners)
2 subsequent Group winners (G2 Strong Suit, G1 Excelebration)

Guineas
12 opponents
12 previous winners
7 previous Group winners (G1 Roderic O&#8217;Connor, G1 Casamento, G1 Pathfork, G2 Saamidd, G3 Rerouted, G3 Native Khan, G3 Broox)
5 subsequent winners (from 12 runners)
4 subsequent Group winners (G1 Roderic O&#8217;Connor, G2 Dubawi Gold, G2 Slim Shady, G3 Casamento)

St James&#8217;s Palace
8 opponents
8 previous winners
6 previous Group horses (G1 Grand Prix Boss, G1 Wootton Bassett, G1 Dream Ahead, G1 Zoffany, G2 Excelebration, G3 Rerouted)
4 subsequent winners (from 8 runners)
3 subsequent Group horses (G1 Dream Ahead, G1 Excelebration, G2 Dubawi Gold)

Sussex
3 opponents
3 previous winners
3 previous Group winners (G1 Canford Cliffs, G1 Rio de la Plata, G2 Rajsaman)
1 subsequent winner (from 2 runners)
1 subsequent Group winner (G2 Rajsaman)

QEII
7 opponents
7 previous winners
7 previous Group winners (G1 Poet&#8217;s Voice, G1 Dick Turpin, G1 Immortal Verse, G1 Excelebration, G2 Dubawi Gold, G3 Bullet Train, G3 Side Glance)
2 subsequent winners (from 5 runners)
2 subsequent Group horses (G1 Excelebration, G3 Side Glance)

Lockinge
5 opponents
5 previous winners
5 previous Group winners (G1 Excelebration, G2 Dubawi Gold, G2 Ransom Note, G3 Bullet Train, G3 Windsor Palace)
1 subsequent winner (from 4 runners)
1 subsequent Group winner (G1 Excelebration)

Queen Anne
10 opponents
10 previous winners
9 previous Group winners (G1 Helmet, G1 Excelebration, G2 Worthadd, G2 Strong Suit, G2 Red Jazz, G2 Premio Loco, G3 Bullet Train, G3 Windsor Palace, G3 Side Glance)
1 subsequent winner (from 9 runners)
1 subsequent Group winner (G1 Excelebration)

Sussex
3 opponents
3 previous winners
1 previous Group winner (G3 Bullet Train, though Farhh 3 x G1 placed)
0 subsequent winners (from 3 runners)

Juddmonte International
8 opponents
8 previous winners
6 previous Group winners (G1 Planteur, G1 Twice Over, G1 St Nicholas Abbey, G2 Sri Putra, G3 Windsor Palace, G3 Bullet Train)
 
So, the total number of G1 winners beaten is now up to 20:


Canford Cliffs: 2010 Irish 2,000 Guineas (IRE); 2010 St James&#8217;s Palace; 2010 Sussex; 2011 Lockinge; 2011 Queen Anne
Casamento: 2010 Racing Post Trophy
Colour Vision: 2012 Ascot Gold Cup
Dick Turpin: 2010 Prix Jean Prat (FR); 2011 Premio Vittorio Di Capua (ITY)
Dream Ahead: 2010 Prix Morny (FR); 2010 Middle Park; 2011 July Cup; 2011 Sprint Cup; 2011 Prix de la Foret (FR)
Excelbration: 2011 Prix du Moulin (FR); 2012 Prix Jacques le Marois (FR)
Immortal Verse: 2011 Coronation Stakes; 2011 Prix Jacques le Marois (FR)
Grand Prix Boss: 2010 Futurity Stakes (JPN); 2011 NHK Mile Cup (JPN)
Helmet: 2011 Inglis Sires Produce Stakes (AUS); 2011 Caulfield Guineas (AUS)
Nathaniel: 2011 King George, 2012 Eclipse
Pathfork: 2010 National Stakes (IRE)
Planteur: 2011 Prix Ganay (FR)
Poet&#8217;s Voice: 2010 QE II
Rio de la Plata: 2007 Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere (FR); 2010 Premio Vittorio Di Capua (ITY)
Roderic O'Connor:2010 Criterium International (FR); 2011 Irish 2,000 Guineas (IRE)
St Nicholas Abbey: 2009 Racing Post Trophy; 2011 Coronation Stakes; 2011 BC Turf (USA); 2012 Coronation Stakes
Treasure Beach: 2011 Irish Derby; 2011 Secretariat Stakes (USA)
Twice Over: 2009 Champion Stakes; 2010 Eclipse; 2010 Champion Stakes; 2011 Juddmonte International
Wootton Bassett: 2010 Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere (FR)
Zoffany: 2010 Phoenix Stakes (IRE)

That's 43 Group 1 races.
 
Good day to you Cyc! Yes, I know, but I would prefer Freddie Trueman to the other gentleman. However, Yorkshire Pud is absolutely OK, a great dish. Can't seem to make the damn thing 'rise' down here in southern Germany. Must be the bloody climate! <laugh>

Now meeting daughter and son-in-law and off we go to Tegernsee where weather is OK apparently. Have to do mandatory walk, but it better be short, as it wastes valuable Tegernsee Spezial beer time. Can't have that!

Have a great weekend Cyc, and to everyone else on the forum too! <cheers>
 
rainbowview said:
I remember a line from the 2000 guineas

"No excuses from here" in regards to New Approach who had everything go right for him but was done by a brilliant turn of foot and also a battle that Henry loved. His guineas win was fantastic considering where he come from in the field and for me was value for more than a nose. He was the better miler whether it be a nose winning distance and NA having excuses in Ireland so be it the fact is NA didn't even win over a mile so even having this conversation is beyond madness.

New Approach was a fantastic horse. His 2yo form was very good and having just watched a replay of the National Stakes he certainly looked to be handling the "good to firm" ground when quickening away from Rio De La Plata. I see you knocked this form but Rio De La Plata was regarded as one of the very best 2yos at the time having won his maiden by 5 lengths and the Vintage (Group 2 ) by a comfortable 2 lengths - alright that didn't turn out to be a great renewal but he did win a Grp 1 after his defeat by NA.

But I suppose it wasn't ideal ground for his fan boys when he got beat off Duke Of Marmalade and Phoenix Tower in the Juddmonte or did he have a valid excuse ? seem to remember Arkle complaining about the lay off ?
Click to expand...

What conversation? New Approach was a 1m4 horse, Henry was a miler, of course Henry is better at a mile, that said, New Approach was back up in another stride in the Guineas which is testament to him and he was a much tougher horse than Henrythenavigator, if they ran any further than a mile New Approach would have destroyed him. He got beaten a nose by a top Group 1 miler when crying out for a trip, that shows you how classy he was. Henrythenavigator and Ravens Pass were different class milers to anything Sea The Stars or Frankel faced in their Guineas, so its safe to assume that New Approach would have won both those renewals rather comfortably.

As for the day he was beaten in the Juddmonte, it was his first run back from an injury that was clearly alot worse than was ever reported, anyone who knows the horse can see he was nowhere near his best that day, and still nowhere near it in the Irish Champion, Pipedreamer finished 1 1/2 behind him in the Juddmonte, he was beaten 22 lengths in the Champion. I thought he would never be the same horse again after the injury but in the Champion at Newmarket, he was right back to it and on that form Duke Of Marmalade and Phoenix Tower wouldnt have got within 4 lengths of him. The injury after the Derby messed up his season but he still managed to go out on a huge performance.

Henry 11 runs 6 wins 4 Group 1s
NewA 11 runs 8 wins 5 Group 1s

New Approachs only defeats came against one of the best milers ive seen over a trip way short of his best, one of those time on ground that was not ideal for him and perfect for Henry, and a comeback run from an injury where he ran at least a stone below his best and a line should be put through it. The horse lost absolutely nothing in any of his 3 defeats.

New Approach was Champion 2yo and Champion 3yo, in terms of who was the better horse and who achieved more, New Approach is a clear winner, he is the better horse overall.
 
I would venture to say that had the going in the mile races had some juice in it, NA would have reversed that form with Henry.

Was a comment from Ron that I disagree with as I believe Henry would have beaten NA on any ground over a mile other than heavy :P

Did you watch the 2000 guineas btw crying out for a trip <rofl> you make him sound as if he flew from the back or something - he dictated that guineas and burnt off a top class miler in Ravens pass so don't give me that nonsense. He was a better horse over further but in the guineas he never shaped as if he was desperate for a step up in distance at all.

before you start btw I know this only goes to show how good a horse NA was ;) and I am sort of contradicting myself but I just like to stick up for HTN <laugh>
 
RV, he was crying out for a trip in the Dewhurst never mind the Guineas, he was back up in another stride, the time Ireland came it was even more apparent, Galileo out of Park Express went on to stay the 1m4 extremely well in the Derby, of course he was crying out for a trip in the Guineas, it was sheer heart and class that took him so close.
 
Back to the original post about Frankel's form- I've been compiling similar form breakdowns for a couple of years now (started with Goldikova and has progressed to lots of top horses, past and present). In my count, and in a stat I saw on Twitter, Frankel's opponents have actually won 45 G1s, rather than the 43 posted here. I've counted my version twice and I think it's right, but if anyone else wants to have a look and double check? Not meaning to steal your thunder PN :biggrin:

Frankel- beaten 20 Group/Grade 1 winners of 45 Group/Grade 1 races


Also beaten Nathaniel (King Edward VII Stakes (2011)- Group 2, King George VI & Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2011) - Group 1, Eclipse Stakes (2012)- Group 1), Genius Beast (BET365 Classic Trial (2011)- Group 3), Colour Vision (Sagaro Stakes (2012)- Group 3), Ascot Gold Cup (2012)- Group 1) in maiden


Royal Lodge Stakes (2010)- Group 2- won 10 lengths

Klammer- Horris Hills Stakes (2010)- Group 3

Treasure Beach- Chester Vase (2011)- Group 3, Irish Derby (2011)- Group 1, Secretariat Stakes (2011)- Grade 1


Dewhurst Stakes (2010)- Group 1- won 2 ½ lengths

Roderic O&#8217;Connor- Criterium International (2010)- Group 1, Irish 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 1

Waiter&#8217;s Dream- Acomb Stakes (2010)- Group 3

Dream Ahead- Prix Morny (2010)- Group 1, Middle Park Stakes (2010)- Group 1, July Cup (2011)- Group 1, Haydock Sprint Cup (2011)- Group 1, Prix de la Foret (2011)- Group 1

Saamidd- Champagne Stakes (2010)- Group 2


Greenham Stakes (2011)- Group 3- won 4 lengths

Excelebration- German 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 2, Hungerford Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Prix du Moulin (2011) - Group 1, Gladness Stakes (2012)- Group 3, Prix Jacques le Marois (2012)- Group 1

Strong Suit- Coventry Stakes (2010)- Group 2, Jersey Stakes (2011)- Group 3, Lennox Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Challenge Stakes (2011)- Group 2


2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 1- won 6 lengths

Dubawi Gold- Celebration Mile (2011)- Group 2

Native Khan- Solario Stakes (2010)- Group 3, Craven Stakes (2011)- Group 3

Slim Shadey- San Marcos (2012)- Grade 2

Pathfork- Futurity Stakes (2010)- Group 2, National Stakes (2010)- Group 1

Rerouted- Somerville Tattersall Stakes (2010)- Group 3

Casamento- Beresford Stakes (2010)- Group 2, Racing Post Trophy (2010)- Group 1, Prix du Prince d&#8217;Orange (2011)- Group 3

Roderic O&#8217;Connor- Criterium International (2010)- Group 1, Irish 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 1

Saamidd- Champagne Stakes (2010)- Group 2

Broox- Prix d&#8217;Arenberg (2010)- Group 3


St James Palace Stakes (2011)- Group 1- won ¾ lengths

Zoffany- Tyros Stakes (2010)- Group 3, Phoenix Stakes (2010)- Group 1

Excelebration- German 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 2, Hungerford Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Prix du Moulin (2011)- Group 1, Gladness Stakes (2012)- Group 3, Prix Jacques le Marois (2012)- Group 1

Dream Ahead- Prix Morny (2010)- Group 1, Middle Park Stakes (2010)- Group 1, July Cup (2011)- Group 1, Haydock Sprint Cup (2011)- Group 1, Prix de la Foret (2011)- Group 1

Dubawi Gold- Celebration Mile (2011)- Group 2

Wootton Bassett- Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere (2010)- Group 1

Grand Prix Boss- Keio Jai Nisai Stakes (2010)- Grade 2, Futurity Stakes (2010)- Grade 1, NHK Mile Cup (2011)- Grade 1

Rerouted- Tattersall Stakes (2010)- Group 3


Sussex Stakes (2011)- Group 1- won 5 lengths

Canford Cliffs- Coventry Stakes (2009)- Group 2, Irish 2000 Guineas (2010)- Group 1, St James Palace Stakes (2010)- Group 1, Sussex Stakes (2010)- Group 1, Lockinge Stakes (2011)- Group 1, Queen Anne Stakes (2011)- Group 1

Rio De La Plata- Vintage Stakes (2007)- Group 2, Prix Jean-Lagardere (2007)- Group 1, Strensall Stakes (2010)- Group 3, Premio Vittorio di Capua (2010)- Group 1, Premio Roma (2010)- Group 1

Rajsaman- Prix de Fontainebleau (2010)- Group 3, Prix Perth (2010)- Group 3, Prix du Muget (2011)- Group 2, Prix Daniel Widenstein (2011)- Group 2


Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2011)- Group 1- won 4 lengths

Excelebration- German 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 2, Hungerford Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Prix du Moulin (2011)- Group 1, Gladness Stakes (2012)- Group 3, Prix Jacques le Marois (2012)- Group 1

Immortal Verse- Prix de Sandringham (2011)- Group 2, Coronation Stakes (2011)- Group 1, Prix Jacques le Marois (2011)- Group 1

Dubawi Gold- Celebration Mile (2011)- Group 2

Dick Turpin- Richmond Stakes (2009)- Group 2, Greenham Stakes (2010)- Group 3, Prix Jean Prat (2010)- Group 1, Sandown Mile (2011)- Group 2, Summer Mile (2011)- Group 2, Premio Vittorio di Capua (2011)- Group 1

Poet&#8217;s Voice- Champagne Stakes (2009)- Group 2, Celebration Mile (2010)- Group 2, Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2010)- Group 1

Side Glance- Sovereign Stakes (2011)- Group 3, Diomed Stakes (2012)- Group 3

Bullet Train- Lingfield Derby Trial (2010)- Group 3


Lockinge Stakes (2012)- Group 1- won 5 lengths

Excelebration- German 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 2, Hungerford Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Prix du Moulin (2011)- Group 1, Gladness Stakes (2012)- Group 3, Prix Jacques le Marois (2012)- Group 1

Dubawi Gold- Celebration Mile (2011)- Group 2

Bullet Train- Lingfield Derby Trial (2010)- Group 3

Ramsom Note- Earl of Sefton Stakes (2011)- Group 3, Nayef Joel Stakes (2011)- Group 2

Windsor Palace- Mooresbridge Stakes (2012)- Group 3


Queen Anne Stakes (2012)- Group 1- won 11 lengths

Excelebration- German 2000 Guineas (2011)- Group 2, Hungerford Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Prix du Moulin (2011)- Group 1, Gladness Stakes (2012)- Group 3, Prix Jacques le Marois (2012)- Group 1

Side Glance- Sovereign Stakes (2011)- Group 3, Diomed Stakes (2012)- Group 3

Windsor Palace- Mooresbridge Stakes (2012)- Group 3

Bullet Train- Lingfield Derby Trial (2010)- Group 3

Helmet- Produce Stakes (2011)- Group 1, Champagne Stakes (2011)- Group 1, Caufield Guineas Prelude (2011)- Group 3, Caufield Guineas (2011)- Group 1

Premio Loco- Oettingen-Rennen (2009)- Group 2, Europa Meile (2009)- Group 2, Criterion Stakes (2010)- Group 3, Summer Mile Stakes (2010)- Group 2, Park Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Winter Derby (2012)- Group 3, Pramms Memorial (2012)- Group 3

Red Jazz- Challenge Stakes (2010)- Group 2

Strong Suit- Coventry Stakes (2010)- Group 2, Jersey Stakes (2011)- Group 3, Lennox Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Challenge Stakes (2011)- Group 2

Worthadd- Premio Parioli (2010)- Group 3, Derby Italiano (2010)- Group 2, Premio Ribot (2010)- Group 2, Premio Carlo Vittadini (2011)- Group 2, Badner Meile (2012)- Group 3


Sussex Stakes (2012)- Group 1- won 6 lengths

Bullet Train- Lingfield Derby Trial (2010)- Group 3


Juddmonte International Stakes (2012)- Group 1- won 7 lengths

St Nicholas Abbey- Beresford Stakes (2009)- Group 2, Racing Post Trophy (2009)- Group 1, Ormonde Stakes (2011)- Group 3, Coronation Cup (2011)- Group 1, Breeders Cup Turf (2011)- Grade 1, Coronation Cup (2012)- Group 1

Twice Over- Craven Stakes (2008)- Group 3, Prix Eugene Adam (2008)- Group 2, Champion Stakes (2009)- Group 1, Eclipse Stakes (2010)- Group 1, Champion Stakes (2010)- Group 1, Al Maktoum Challenge Round 3 (2011)- Group 2, York Stakes (2011)- Group 2, Juddmonte International (2011)- Group 1

Bullet Train- Lingfield Derby Trial (2010)- Group 3

Sri Putra- Solario Stakes (2008)- Group 3, Prix Guillaume d&#8217;Ornano (2009)- Group 2, Earl Of Sefton Stakes (2010)- Group 3, York Stakes (2012)- Group 2

Planteur- Prix Noailles (2010)- Group 2, Prix d&#8217;Harcourt (2011)- Group 2, Prix Ganay (2011)- Group 1

Windsor Palace- Mooresbridge Stakes (2012)- Group 3
 
Fully prepared to believe I may have missed a couple! Looking at it, it appears I missed one each for HELMET and RIO DE LA PLATA.
 
Easy to do, my eyes were all screwed up by the time I finished! Makes it more impressive. Has there been any vague indication yet of where they might go next? If they didn't go for the Arc, I was really hoping the Irish Champion Stakes would be on the agenda but the timing looks rather tight this year.
 
The reports I've read are that they have not ruled the Arc out yet, but he will definitely not run in both the Arc and Champion, it would be one or the other.

Breeders' Cup is a definite no, even though BC have sent a representative to Newmarket to beg them to reconsider!
 
"Frankel comes cruising through and...........they can't get him off the bridle!"

Will we ever forget that commentary?
 
Ron said:
"Frankel comes cruising through and...........they can't get him off the bridle!"

Will we ever forget that commentary?
Click to expand...

First time I've heard it Ron - excellent stuff. On a par with the 2011 Gold Cup - "and it's Kauto Star and Denman rolling back the years"!
 
Not the best quality and will probably be taking down soon. I was there, I'll never forget the roar!

.[video=youtube;YCqUrX9bN6w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YCqUrX9bN6w[/video]
 
Here you go Princess - just for you. Grab it quick though as RUK will have it pulled for copyright infringement <doh>

[video=youtube;lZ_5efCTbDk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ_5efCTbDk&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
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