FPP to take full control

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This is the crux of the problem: We don't know, and it really matters to know. If they're £5m apart, I'd say that FPP are absolutely not suitable owners if they think £5m is too much extra money to shell out on buying us in the first place. What kind of people and owners would that suggest they could be? 'Skinflints' is not the same as 'canny businessmen'.

But they could be £30m apart in which case I'd say Donald is being unreasonable and FPP would have every right to feel aggrieved if he dicked them around as has been implied.

Or they could say that they are not bothered about price (because they've agreed) but they won't take us on until we're higher up the league ladder.

Personally, I think the fact that this was ever a discussion indicates that they were never that far apart on price. You don't get anywhere in talks where you're £20-30m apart on a deal under £40m.

My ultimate belief in all of this is that the price is not the main sticking point for FPP.
 
Kittenmittons said:
This is the crux of the problem: We don't know, and it really matters to know. If they're £5m apart, I'd say that FPP are absolutely not suitable owners if they think £5m is too much extra money to shell out on buying us in the first place. What kind of people and owners would that suggest they could be? 'Skinflints' is not the same as 'canny businessmen'.

But they could be £30m apart in which case I'd say Donald is being unreasonable and FPP would have every right to feel aggrieved if he dicked them around as has been implied.

Or they could say that they are not bothered about price (because they've agreed) but they won't take us on until we're higher up the league ladder.

Personally, I think the fact that this was ever a discussion indicates that they were never that far apart on price. You don't get anywhere in talks where you're £20-30m apart on a deal under £40m.

My ultimate belief in all of this is that the price is not the main sticking point for FPP.
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Why would they be skin flints if the sticking price is only £5million?

You could say they were smart businessmen who know not to pay over the odds for an asset
 
Kittenmittons said:
This is the crux of the problem: We don't know, and it really matters to know. If they're £5m apart, I'd say that FPP are absolutely not suitable owners if they think £5m is too much extra money to shell out on buying us in the first place. What kind of people and owners would that suggest they could be? 'Skinflints' is not the same as 'canny businessmen'.

But they could be £30m apart in which case I'd say Donald is being unreasonable and FPP would have every right to feel aggrieved if he dicked them around as has been implied.

Or they could say that they are not bothered about price (because they've agreed) but they won't take us on until we're higher up the league ladder.

Personally, I think the fact that this was ever a discussion indicates that they were never that far apart on price. You don't get anywhere in talks where you're £20-30m apart on a deal under £40m.

My ultimate belief in all of this is that the price is not the main sticking point for FPP.
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Maybe its because SD insisting on a role or a share on based on promotion etc. In addition to the price paid.
 
Chunksafc said:
Why would they be skin flints if the sticking price is only £5million?

You could say they were smart businessmen who know not to pay over the odds for an asset
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This is exactly what I alluded to earlier though. People make this excuse all the time, but it's utterly hypocritical to criticise Donald for his willingness to put his personal finances above the club's, yet not criticise FPP if they were willing to see Donald ruin us in to save an amount that is negligible to them.

The people who have to lose for them to win that game are us.

And for the record, again, that's why I don't believe for a second that it is the case. Because it is absolutely not smart business to allow someone to ruin an asset that you have designs on, to save money that you can easily afford.
 
Kittenmittons said:
This is exactly what I alluded to earlier though. People make this excuse all the time, but it's utterly hypocritical to criticise Donald for his willingness to put his personal finances above the club's, yet not criticise FPP if they were willing to see Donald ruin us in to save an amount that is negligible to them.

The people who have to lose for them to win that game are us.

And for the record, again, that's why I don't believe for a second that it is the case. Because it is absolutely not smart business to allow someone to ruin an asset that you have designs on, to save money that you can easily afford.
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People don't get as rich as these people do by over paying.

You suggested they were skin flints, I would suggest they are astute business men. Just because the amount is considered negligible to us outsiders, doesnt mean they should just pay it
 
Chunksafc said:
People don't get as rich as these people do by over paying.

You suggested they were skin flints, I would suggest they are astute business men. Just because the amount is considered negligible to us outsiders, doesnt mean they should just pay it
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If they think we are going to be worth anywhere near Premier League money in the next 5 years, which is surely part of their aim, then £5m more is not a figure I would expect to prevent them buying us given how small the deal is in relation to their personal wealth and deals they work on professionally.

Think about the alternative to that (which we are living). It costs way more than £5m to undo the damage being caused by Donald, so it makes zero sense if you're serious about buying us to sit on the sidelines and know that every day is going to cost you money to undo.

That's why I think the likelihood is that price is not the issue here.
 
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Kittenmittons said:
If they think we are going to be worth anywhere near Premier League money in the next 5 years, which is surely part of their aim, then £5m more is not a figure I would expect to prevent them buying us given how small the deal is in relation to their personal wealth and deals they work on professionally.

Think about the alternative to that (which we are living). It costs way more than £5m to undo the damage being caused by Donald, so it makes zero sense if you're serious about buying us to sit on the sidelines and know that every day is going to cost you money to undo.

That's why I think the likelihood is that price is not the issue here.
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Alternatively, every day you sit tight reduces the price of your target to what you want to pay, safe in the knowledge you will get it back several times over
 
Chunksafc said:
People don't get as rich as these people do by over paying.

You suggested they were skin flints, I would suggest they are astute business men. Just because the amount is considered negligible to us outsiders, doesnt mean they should just pay it
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Rich people in my experience are the most penny pinching people on Earth. They quite simply do not squander money, be it pennies or millions of pounds.
 
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Chunksafc said:
We all do, but unfortunately FPP are not SAFC fans, they are hard nosed businessmen who see an opportunity
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And this is my point. Stewart Donald was a hard-nosed businessman who saw an opportunity. He is a person willing to put his own personal wealth above the needs of the football club.

If FPP are doing the same, why would we assume that however much money they have, they will spend the amounts necessary to undo the work of the last person who tried to do it all on the cheap?
 
Kittenmittons said:
And this is my point. Stewart Donald was a hard-nosed businessman who saw an opportunity. He is a person willing to put his own personal wealth above the needs of the football club.

If FPP are doing the same, why would we assume that however much money they have, they will spend the amounts necessary to undo the work of the last person who tried to do it all on the cheap?
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SD is about as hard nosed as a puppy, he saw an opportunity to make money and royally ****ed up.

If he had made the money he wanted he would have been away faster than Linford Christie.

The money SD wanted to make is small change to FPP, they would have wanted the big money and contacts a Premier league club attracts
 
I think @Chunksafc and @Kittenmittons both make valid arguments so why not meet in the middle (2.5m) and call it evens or come to some sort of performance based payments to reach the 5m or something approaching that. Call it 2m for promotion to Championship, another million for finishing in Play Offs say and then the final 2m for promotion to PL.

The problem with SD, is that (according to most news reports) he's asking for more than double what we are worth and basing that on potential. Nobody pays that for potential in football, not even for the next potential big player. And why should he get that money if another person/s is doing all the work of fulfilling that 'potential'. It's madness to think that's what he's wanting after overseeing our 2 worst positions in our history.

FWIW, if it was me, I'd be telling SD a price and anything above that telling him to do one so if FPP are 5m, 10m or even 2m away on there valuation, I wouldn't be offering SD a penny more and I would be lowering that price by the day atm knowing full well the fans are pissed off, he's losing money hand over fist and we need a whole new playing squad and staff.
 
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Chunksafc said:
SD is about as hard nosed as a puppy, he saw an opportunity to make money and royally ****ed up.

If he had made the money he wanted he would have been away faster than Linford Christie.

The money SD wanted to make is small change to FPP, they would have wanted the big money and contacts a Premier league club attracts
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You can't kid yourself that FPP want the club to be going in the wrong direction so they save £5m now, only to pay it out trying to undo his work.

Like I said, my feeling - could be wrong - is that it's not the money at all, it's the League One slog that they'd be signing up to at this level.

But let's assume it isn't and they would take us on in League One and are confident they could get us up, here are the two options you're suggesting:

1) In October of last year, pay Donald whatever your purchase price is +£5m, get started with a decent League One club early in a season, reinvigorate the players and fans, spend money in January and make a push for promotion in the 2019/20 season, therefore potentially achieving the Championship within 9 months of taking over and being within 1 division of the PL with 4 years of your 5 year plan left.

or

2) Refuse to pay £5m more than you want and hold on as long as you want just to get the club at your preferred price, wait until Donald has turned us into a shell of a club inside and out and stripped away any value. Take over in the Summer of 2021 when the club is threatened with administration 18 months after you could have. Spend way more than £5m just reinstating the parts of the club lost in the previous 18 months to Donald's cost-cutting on and off the pitch even before you spend the money necessary to contend for the league one title - which won't be achieved until the summer of 2022. At that point, you're 3 years into the same 5 year plan and have 2 years to get to the Premier League to achieve your 5 year plan.

The latter makes literally no sense. None. There is literally nothing to support any of it whether you believe that's their position or not. If it is, they're not the people we hoped.

I just don't think it's about cash, big or small. I think it's about not wanting to start in League One and find it goes wrong and ends up being a messier affair than it could be. That's the infinitely least sexy part of this investment.
 
Kittenmittons said:
You can't kid yourself that FPP want the club to be going in the wrong direction so they save £5m now, only to pay it out trying to undo his work.

Like I said, my feeling - could be wrong - is that it's not the money at all, it's the League One slog that they'd be signing up to at this level.

But let's assume it isn't and they would take us on in League One and are confident they could get us up, here are the two options you're suggesting:

1) In October of last year, pay Donald whatever your purchase price is +£5m, get started with a decent League One club early in a season, reinvigorate the players and fans, spend money in January and make a push for promotion in the 2019/20 season, therefore potentially achieving the Championship within 9 months of taking over and being within 1 division of the PL with 4 years of your 5 year plan left.

or

2) Refuse to pay £5m more than you want and hold on as long as you want just to get the club at your preferred price, wait until Donald has turned us into a shell of a club inside and out and stripped away any value. Take over in the Summer of 2021 when the club is threatened with administration 18 months after you could have. Spend way more than £5m just reinstating the parts of the club lost in the previous 18 months to Donald's cost-cutting on and off the pitch even before you spend the money necessary to contend for the league one title - which won't be achieved until the summer of 2022. At that point, you're 3 years into the same 5 year plan and have 2 years to get to the Premier League to achieve your 5 year plan.

The latter makes literally no sense. None. There is literally nothing to support any of it whether you believe that's their position or not. If it is, they're not the people we hoped.

I just don't think it's about cash, big or small. I think it's about not wanting to start in League One and find it goes wrong and ends up being a messier affair than it could be. That's the infinitely least sexy part of this investment.
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And as I said numerous posts ago, very rich people don't get very rich by spending they don't want to, as others have said the super rich are probably the tightest people on the planet.

Of course FPP don't want to be sat in league one, it's hardly glamorous, but they also won't over pay just to keep us happy.

As it stands now, they are probably waiting to pick us up for next to **** all when the cash runs out. Not a great thought for us, but that's how the big boys work
 
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Chunksafc said:
And as I said numerous posts ago, very rich people don't get very rich by spending they don't want to, as others have said the super rich are probably the tightest people on the planet.

Of course FPP don't want to be sat in league one, it's hardly glamorous, but they also won't over pay just to keep us happy.

As it stands now, they are probably waiting to pick us up for next to **** all when the cash runs out. Not a great thought for us, but that's how the big boys work
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So you think that they're taking option 2? :D If they are I'll eat my hat and I'll also say that they're absolute ****heads who we should be just as wary of as we are Donald.
 
Guinness Guzzler said:
Many will probably laugh at the idea of an open letter but I think it's fair enough. The owners have always said if we want to know FPP's intentions we should ask them. They have no obligation to answer, but you'd like to think they could speak, there's no need for secrecy and it is causing a hell of a lot of confusion and adding to the issues at the club.

If they were to come out and say they want it but can't yet agree a price, you'd see the Donald out stuff increase ten fold from our support, we might be inclined not to renew season cards etc. If they say they want to buy us but only if we're in a higher league you might instead see more renewing and less infighting as we try to ensure we can get the club up so these owners can go. If they say they've got no interest then at least we can move on from that, work out the next steps from the fans point of view and it might even encourage other buyers to come forward who might currently think FPP would be an obstacle in their way. I agree that it's about time they commented rather than just leaving a lot of confusion as the club seems to fall to pieces.

Many will say they won't read it, but I'm 100% sure they will. They have been keeping a much closer eye on things at Sunderland than most realise (whether that is because of any purchasing interest or simply because they have a sum of money tied up in the business through the loan I couldn't say though). They'll read it. I hope their wives read it as well. And let's hope they eventually decide to give us a clue one way or the other. There's no need for it to be kept a secret, much though they're entitled to do so if they want.
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Why do you hope that their wives read it?
 
Kittenmittons said:
So you think that they're taking option 2? :D If they are I'll eat my hat and I'll also say that they're absolute ****heads who we should be just as wary of as we are Donald.
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I dont think they are taking any option as I think SD has seen that ship sail away.

I assume as you think they are **** heads and being such a successful businessman just pay what your asked even if you think it's overvalued
 
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