Formation / Tactics

Gawge

Gawge

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2011
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Couldn't see an obvious thread to have a moan about this in, so here we go.

This 'diamond' REALLY doesn't work. The first half was abysmal. We effectively had 4 CM's, barely doing the work of 2. Elmo and Robertson were expected to be our main attacking outlets! That really doesn't work in a back four, and a number of times they were caught well out of position - but it was the system that was at fault, not our fullbacks.

When we won the ball, there was pretty much nobody to go to. Quinn will almost always keep the ball moving, but then there was no further option to get the ball forward other than to wait for Elmo/Robertson to bust a gut and run the length of the pitch, or lump it up to Jela/Abel.

It's time for Brucey to make a decision. Go 352 and drop Thudd or Livermore (he'd probably actually drop Quinn, but whatever), giving our exciting wing-backs a decent chance. Or we stick with the 442, but we get Rosie at RB, and Elmo actually plays as a winger.

No point in having 4 CM's when Quinn is the only one who can seemingly keep the ball, and Diame is the only one who can do exciting things with it.
 
I wouldn't mind trying something like this (trying to have Ben Arfa in some sort of free & creating role) behind Jela and Abel.
The 4-4-2 with Elmo and Robertson on the wings is clearly not working.

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I have a feeling we will go five at the back next week the defence which was so strong last season is giving some silly goals away
 
Gawge said:
Couldn't see an obvious thread to have a moan about this in, so here we go.

This 'diamond' REALLY doesn't work. The first half was abysmal. We effectively had 4 CM's, barely doing the work of 2. Elmo and Robertson were expected to be our main attacking outlets! That really doesn't work in a back four, and a number of times they were caught well out of position - but it was the system that was at fault, not our fullbacks.

When we won the ball, there was pretty much nobody to go to. Quinn will almost always keep the ball moving, but then there was no further option to get the ball forward other than to wait for Elmo/Robertson to bust a gut and run the length of the pitch, or lump it up to Jela/Abel.

It's time for Brucey to make a decision. Go 352 and drop Thudd or Livermore (he'd probably actually drop Quinn, but whatever), giving our exciting wing-backs a decent chance. Or we stick with the 442, but we get Rosie at RB, and Elmo actually plays as a winger.

No point in having 4 CM's when Quinn is the only one who can seemingly keep the ball, and Diame is the only one who can do exciting things with it.
Click to expand...

All good points.

I like Febbos' team but it puts a lot on Diame with Hudd sa bit slow and HBA notoriously lazy when defending.

We were all scratching our heads wondering where we fit them all in. Think we know now we cant.
 
I've store it a few times now, we're a ten that crosses the ball an awful lot as our main attacking threat, and we don't create that much otherwise.

The means we need to play to our strengths. Being chester in for quinn or Livermore from today and we'd look so much better.
 
My instinct is the 352, but it is difficult to call the central 3.

I have liked what little I have seen of Gaston, so that's another potential choice - but we can't starting playing every midfielder we have, just because we like them, because it doesn't seem to work. We could try having Ben Arfa or Brady instead of one of the strikers too.

But I do think it's important to sort the full-back/wing-back situation out, because what could be our biggest strength is looking a lot like a huge weakness.
 
I'd play this against Man City:

McGregor
Chester Dawson Davies
Elmohamady Diame Huddlestone Ramirez Robertson
Jelavic Hernandez

Bring Brady, Ince, Ben Arfa or Aluko on if it isn't working. We have options.
 
We try to fit everyone in and end up square pegging players into places they don't fit into

Example - Diame into a DMC role.

The problem we have is we have too many offensive players.
HBA
Ince
Ramirez
Aluko
Brady

Realistically these are fighting for one slot in one formation and two in another

I'm glad we play two up front but in a 532 we probably won't get any of the above five in the first XI
In a 442 we might see one or more as a wide option but also would see Elmo move into this mix
In the diamond might get one of them playing at the spear, but again Diame might take this role

Oddly, we probably need injuries and/or suspensions to keep the squad motivated

In hindsight, we could have done better not signing Ramirez, but he is a quality player on his day - let's hope we see it
 
They hardly created anything before their 1st goal so it's not like nothing was working, but we took our strikers off, left Aluko up front on his own and it kept coming back at us. I normally agree with Bruce's decisions but I can't understand this thing he keeps doing with playing weak as piss strike forces. We all know Jelavic is first choice but when he isn't there for whatever reason he seems happy enough to have someone like Sagbo or Aluko up front on their own when they're quite clearly getting nowhere near the ball. I don't get that. We were absolutely useless in attack away at Lokeren with just Sagbo up there (until Jelavic came on, then we started creating chances) and then again in the home leg with Sagbo and Aluko. We also conceded the equaliser to Stoke without a striker on the pitch (Boyd and Elmo seemed to be the furthest forward). Now today we try it again with just Aluko and it's the same again. We just needed to keep going as we were today and we could have won 2-0. Our defence is good enough but not impermeable. If they have enough of the ball they'll score eventually. It seems so simple to me but there must be a reason Bruce keeps doing it.

Hopefully when Hernandez gets fitter he can start playing 90 minutes and having more of an impact than he did today, because if we have to keep using only two proper strikers in the matchday squad and taking them both off after 70 minutes we're going to continue to struggle at the end of games. Where was Ince today? How did he end up behind Aluko in the pecking order? I reckon he's had a go at Bruce or something for not playing him or for signing better players in his position. He's better than Aluko so there must be something going on there.
 
Robertson was at fault for both their goals

He's young & needs to learn from his errors

He's got a lot of pace, good crosser, wouldn't drop him but the fallout from this kind of game will make or break him

Unpolished gem
 
tigercity said:
Robertson was at fault for both their goals

He's young & needs to learn from his errors

He's got a lot of pace, good crosser, wouldn't drop him but the fallout from this kind of game will make or break him

Unpolished gem
Click to expand...

As I've said on another thread, blame the formation for that not him. The narrow diamond meant that he was the only width on the left and covered far too much ground to be switched on for 90 minutes
 
johnbo said:
I have a feeling we will go five at the back next week the defence which was so strong last season is giving some silly goals away
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didn't the defence that was so strong last season include james chester? he's played a game and a bit this season and not conceded.
 
Febbos said:
I wouldn't mind trying something like this (trying to have Ben Arfa in some sort of free & creating role) behind Jela and Abel.
The 4-4-2 with Elmo and Robertson on the wings is clearly not working.

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Click to expand...

I'd go with that but with Dawson in the middle of the back 3, Chessie on the right and Davies on the left. Ben Arfa needs to be in the hole and with the speed of Robertson and Elmo as wing backs should create more openings for Jellie and Hernandez. Diame is a major boost to our CMF and Livermore has been completely ineffective recently and should be dropped. We are very close to being a top team...just need to stop getting too defensive in the last 25 minutes and for McGregor to improve his handling/positioning.
 
tigercity said:
Robertson was at fault for both their goals

He's young & needs to learn from his errors

He's got a lot of pace, good crosser, wouldn't drop him but the fallout from this kind of game will make or break him

Unpolished gem
Click to expand...

Can't blame Robertson for the first goal - Quinn gave the ball away and Mac should not be getting beaten on his near post.
 
Mac is a great keeper but has let in some stupid goals in this season, yesterday at is near post should never have been beaten, again in mid week West hams second goal he should have done better with and the one against Lockeren when he kicked it straight to their forward. I know he is a top keeper and as made some great saves this season but at this level he as to cut out the daft mistakes, perhaps he needs a bit more competition.
 
Some good points on here. I agree about bringing Chester into a back three and releasing Elmo and Robertson to play in their natural roles.

If we assume that Hudd and Diame are two of the midfield three (I don't buy this "drop Huddlestone" talk at all), then you're left with picking just one from Livermore (uncreative, out of form), Quinn (lack of physicality), Ramirez (match fitness?) or Ben Arfa (a very attacking player, leaving Thudd and Dame with more work and fewer opportunities to get forward).

Personally, on the evidence of Hernandez's invisible man act yesterday, I'm struggling to see how we could accommodate both him and Ben Arfa against Man City, where we're bound to be chasing the ball quite a bit. So I'm probably leaning towards starting Ramirez in midfield, with Ben Arfa getting the last 30 minutes (probably in a free role behind Jelavic).
 
Tuckin said:
Some good points on here. I agree about bringing Chester into a back three and releasing Elmo and Robertson to play in their natural roles.

If we assume that Hudd and Diame are two of the midfield three (I don't buy this "drop Huddlestone" talk at all), then you're left with picking just one from Livermore (uncreative, out of form), Quinn (lack of physicality), Ramirez (match fitness?) or Ben Arfa (a very attacking player, leaving Thudd and Dame with more work and fewer opportunities to get forward).

Personally, on the evidence of Hernandez's invisible man act yesterday, I'm struggling to see how we could accommodate both him and Ben Arfa against Man City, where we're bound to be chasing the ball quite a bit. So I'm probably leaning towards starting Ramirez in midfield, with Ben Arfa getting the last 30 minutes (probably in a free role behind Jelavic).
Click to expand...

we will be chasing the ball a lot agree with you there..... but if we get our act together then I have a sneaky feeling we could just get a surprise win ..... we are at home and we are very difficult to beat at the KC. The squad has a further 6 days for them to gel a little more just wish they would start with the passing attacking play that was so prevalent last term.
 
Do you blokes honestly believe that Steve Bruce and his team don't bother to work out pre-game tactics? He has scouts watching the opposition the week before and they will come up with a formation and tactics that is designed to get a result. It's all right us sitting in an armchair and then voicing criticism AFTER the event when the tactics haven't worked but these blokes are professionals for gawds sake. Pardew and his gang must have wondered what they had done wrong to be 2 goals down after they had over double our attempts on goal and almost double our possession. We had 3 attempts on target and 2 of them went in albeit both fantastic strikes by Jelly and Diame but after that we got torn to pieces and were lucky to get a draw.
We are all wiser AFTER the event but this was also a 100% better Newcastle side than the one that played Southampton last week. Our side has some bonding to do yet but the signs are there that we will have a very competitive side this season.
 
Another option for next weekend is deploying someone to man-mark Silva, who makes them tick. Any one of Chester, Livermore, Meyler or Quinn could do it.

Let's hope Toure continues to stroll around the park like he has lately, rather than returning to the force of nature he can be.
 
Wednesday night will be key for who plays next weekend.

We can presume that some of the peripheral players will be given a run out.

I would expect Bruce, Chester, Rosenior, Brady, Meyler, Aluko, Sagbo and Ince to feature.
 
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