Off Topic European Debate Thread
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Why don't you watch the film then you won't keep repeating incorrect rubbish.!
If they are twisted lies.. Show me how and why.
You keep using Switzerland as an example.. watch the film and come back to me!
And your statements sum up you. A stubborn middle aged man who is quite happy for future generations to be worse off so he can feel a bit patriotic in the short term, blind to the consequences long term. You are quite happy for refugees to be sent back and tortured to death, Beacause it would cost you less. You always have to have a go at those who have different opinions to you and look down on people from your silver bubble. You don't accept that people have different views on life from where they are in life.
Quite the opposite I want to save my kids future from people like you.!
There we go, more true colours, copy the post here where I have said that? and so you're clear we have been talking about migrants not refugees!
And this shows ignorance to the debate. You've clearly made your mind up and that's good it is your prerogative to. However arguing the fact and then refusing to watch / listen to what others say is a bit hypocritical. You come across as wanting others to listen to you when you've clearly stated now that you won't listen to others.
Being in the EU has good points and also bad points, which is why I'm undecided but to be honest reading this debate on here with you spouting in is good but with no facts, and others spouting out BUT presenting facts or at least videos etc. It makes me want to swing to out vote.
I can honestly take from reading your post, that you won't listen to others it's your way or not, and possibly we was all like that at a young age I certainly was. But the biggest lesson I did learn in life is others could be right and I'm wrong so I choose then to listen to all people on this sort of matter.
We all got told the Millenium bug was going to ruin the financial markets, just because some tell you stuff like that to scare you, doesn't always make it true.
It would be a fundamental point of leaving the EU. The UK is already not part of Schengen. Multinationals and EU member states will NOT cease trading with the UK due to border control rules being changed, in the same manner EU member states (including the UK) trade with Countries with abysmal human rights records.
The 'olds' supposedly want out.
The 'young' supposedly want in.
I think it's quite ironic.
The 'young' say we need immigrants to pay the 'olds' pension.
So we 'olds' should want to remain, but we don't.
The 'olds' say immigrants will push up house prices.
So the 'young' should want out, but they don't.
The 'young' supposedly want in.
I think it's quite ironic.
The 'young' say we need immigrants to pay the 'olds' pension.
So we 'olds' should want to remain, but we don't.
The 'olds' say immigrants will push up house prices.
So the 'young' should want out, but they don't.
Watched the entire thing, thanks for sharing. There's no doubt in my mind that we would be better off economically with an out vote. My only issue is that it's obviously biased, so I'm going to make sure I watch some 'in' material as well to balance it out.
However, I have to agree with MTG in that I don't think it will affect immigration massively. We will obviously need to strike up a method of trading with the EU, and even though we are the biggest customer of the EU, they will also be aware that we will be desperate to strike some sort of an agreement with them as well, given that the EU take 45% of our exports. Given that fact, neither side are in a strong position and I think it is extremely unlikely that the EU would allow us to trade with them as (or similarly to) before without some sort of immigration solution as well.
Thanks for watching Rob, I agree it will be biased to one side but contains some 'facts' at least, the Switzerland story being of most interest. That film really opened my eyes to some of the 'stay' scaremongering.
My own opinion is that if we do leave The Eu will need to greatly consider the way it is doing its trade, if that film is to be believed they are the weakest of all trading groups anyway and deteriorating by the day. As they say a whole new avenue opens up to us we are currently not 'allowed' to venture down and Switzerland who MGT keeps quoting as an 'in' example are actually the best example of a good reason to leave!
If we do vote out, this will be purely be down to 'border control' and to regain democratic rights.. trade deals won't be done that would open our borders again, there would be a massive outcry at that.
I welcome a similar video from the 'in' side and I will take the full time to watch it?
I think it is a polar opposite.
EU member states already trade with non-member states. It is ridiculous to think this will cease. That would go against the type of free market capitalism mtg was referring to till he changed his argument.
The EU at this point is negotiating a trade deal with America. A deal that could allow American corporations a right to bid to run/take over aspects of the NHS for instance. That is free trade. There is no extra layer of uncontrolled migration as a bolt on . It is about access to markets and money, not people, its unnecessary.
Regarding immigration. The UK currently takes in enormous numbers of EU migrants which could instantly cease via a visa/points system. Over a decade that figure would affect millions. The highly skilled could still live in the UK, as they do already via non EU Countries.
I watched the entire film late last night, thanks banksy, I must say it's very persuasive and in parts made me fume, I will state I'm voting out, my main reason is our loss of sovereignty and the building up of this new European empire of anonymous, unelected bureaucrats, backed up by a supreme court that will have total control over our laws and us.
I would love to hear a reasoned debate from the remain side but wish they would stop bombarding us with threats of poverty and constantly belittling our nation claiming we are unable to cope with standing on our own two feet.
I would love to hear a reasoned debate from the remain side but wish they would stop bombarding us with threats of poverty and constantly belittling our nation claiming we are unable to cope with standing on our own two feet.
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The reason why America and non European continent countries don't have open immigration policies with the Eu is because of the oceans between them. Also America are a 300 million strong country and so have a bit more power when it comes to the negotiation table.
Everyone is overlooking the fact that so many migrants are in the UK because not enough Brits want to do the lowly paid jobs (perceived by many as beneath them), they would rather stay on benefits, so the workforce has to come from somewhere. Such a sad state of the British 'entitled generation' thinking. I have never opposed hard working, skilled immigrants, nearly every country needs them (and in fact I am one), as long as they pay their taxes and abide by our laws. I am also not against them practising their different religions and customs in the UK (a courtesy not reciprocated in far too many countries), but I absolutely draw the line at such people trying to change our British way of life and values if it crosses with their beliefs. Then and only then is the phrase "if you don't like it you can always go home" is acceptable.
The refugees being sent back and tortured argument holds no sway with me at all I'm afraid, the vast majority of these refugees have passed many a safe haven country en route to the UK where they would be safe from supposed persecution, (same story here in Oz with the boat loads of refugees). If safety was their primary concern, then the destination should not matter!!
The refugees being sent back and tortured argument holds no sway with me at all I'm afraid, the vast majority of these refugees have passed many a safe haven country en route to the UK where they would be safe from supposed persecution, (same story here in Oz with the boat loads of refugees). If safety was their primary concern, then the destination should not matter!!
A reason there are so many low paid migrants in the UK is because of economics. They are there to drive costs down, avoid companies paying holiday pay/sick pay/overtime, avoid having to train our own populace, avoid meddlesome unions who object to the obscene use of zero hour contracts.
Immigrants are a resource, a moveable asset for the free market to utilise as it sees fit beyond former democratic controls.
The end results are highly damaging for elements of UK society.
Getting silly now. The American Green Card has nothing to do with saline water.
Also America are ... A bit nuts, or some of their politicians are = The Republicans consider the NHS a form of detestable communism.
You do realise that America is a continent? And that the USA does have controls themselves to stop immigration issues. Like of I was to apply to go there longer than a certain period of time I would need a green card.
Australia has very tight policies on immigration and its either their way or no way. And they've got ****ing acres of land you could build on there.
Sadly ROD, it is not quite so much like that in Oz anymore, under the John Howard government yes, but successive governments have gotten softer, although they are taking a tougher stance again if late for refugees. In terms of immigration, it is based on a need for skilled labour, very hard to get a visa if you cannot prove the work force in Oz could not fill a job.
Then isn't the solution to change laws to stop ****ty employers.
How many people who complain about immigrants being cheaper buy everything from British businesses with British labour who pay their employees different money. Of course no one does. Most are happy to get a bargain irrelevant to all of the above.
The American immigration situation with Europe is largely due to its distance away from it.
And agreed there are a lot of nutters over there
Then isn't the solution to change laws to stop ****ty employers ... Yes. I am up for a Country that is not flooded with migrants, who often get treated poorly, which leads to a righteous circle of those lower down the social scale who have lived here all their lives being disadvantaged as well.
How many people who complain about immigrants being cheaper buy everything from British businesses with British labour who pay their employees different money. Of course no one does. Most are happy to get a bargain irrelevant to all of the above ... That is the way capitalism works. Most people are not principled anarchists or radicals. Companies with dubious practices are involved in all e,g Body shop bought out by a vivisection investing multinational, Tesco buying up anything under umbrella organisations to put independants out of business.. It is very hard to be principled in UK society. Very hard. The supposed moral company I work for bank with Barclays (arms trade, right wing juntas ...).
Of course no one does .. Do not judge me by your standards.
Many people in employment do complain. I certainly have and have offered advice to foreign agency labour who are being bullied and exploited by their employees.
The American immigration situation with Europe is largely due to its distance away from it ... Americas neighbours require green cards and visas .
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