Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

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How will you vote in the EU referendum ?

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petersaxton said:
I didn't like the fraudulent nature of the petition
Also I didnt think it would get anywhere because it was trying to bring in something that was already covered by an Act of Parliament - which is against the petition rules
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What rubbish, fraudulent is such balls to discredit a huge number of peoples concerns and get out of debating them...
 
Treble said:
Sorry but he's a prize ****er who has single-handedly played politics with the education system and ****ed up schooling for a generation. If his handling of the education system is anything to go by, he will be an arrogant twat who will make a pigs ear of everything he touches.
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Well, I've asked for some information on why he was incompetent as Secretary of State for Education so I look forward to any evidence.
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
What rubbish, fraudulent is such balls to discredit a huge number of peoples concerns and get out of debating them...
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At least we know what you think about fraudulent activities.
What would be the point of debating them? It's a complete waste of time. You have to accept that you lost and move on.
 
petersaxton said:
Why is he incompetent? What was incompetent about him when he was Secretary of State for Education (not a Minister).
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He tried to force through ill advised and unworkable academies where untrained people could be used instead of teachers. He pissed off the whole industry so much that there were protracted strikes, protests, he was booed at a Teachers conference (I forget which one sorry), he had to back down on academies and many teachers left the industry because of his treatment of them.
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
Strange you say that as one of the reasons that Murdoch was such an advocate for Brexit was because he had little influence in the EU but had massive influence in the UK where he can decide elections and is best friends with most of the last prime ministerial candidates (Blair, Cameron, Gove, Johnson, probably a few others).

Of course there is that issue with the EU though and it is a serious problem - it's one of the things I meant when I talked about neo-liberalism. But they'd still need to get all 28 (now 27) countries to agree to any changes, which is why TTIP isn't very likely to get passed at all. Whereas here it is almost guaranteed that some form of TTIP will get passed as there's such strong support by the Tories. And they are undertaking the most breathtaking de-regulation of industries - from Education to Health to food production and farm to heavy industry, skills levels, environmental and H&S standards will all be going down.

Visibility is an issue, but almost everything is reported on in the EU - it's one of it's negatives, massive bureaucracy, but it does mean that most money can be tracked and audits are carried out. Whereas besides the Freedom of Information tool (which the Tories want to do away with) we have little of those powers with our own government.
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Cheers, I'm not sure I totally agree with all of that, and I don't have enough information to hand to rebut it, but it's worth noting that Murdoch had said he favoured Gove to lead, at least two days before Boris knew he was going, which supports your first paragraph.
 
petersaxton said:
At least we know what you think about fraudulent activities.
What would be the point of debating them? It's a complete waste of time. You have to accept that you lost and move on.
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As I said before - how dare you tell me that I shouldn't fight for my job, my standard of living and the money and social programmes that are keeping the poorest parts of Wales alive. You may have an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude and it doesn't concern you. But personally I'm disgusted and fearful and I'm going to fight as hard as possible
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
Cheers, I'm not sure I totally agree with all of that, and I don't have enough information to hand to rebut it, but it's worth noting that Murdoch had said he favoured Gove to lead, at least two days before Boris knew he was going, which supports your first paragraph.
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Fair enough, I just hope I've given you enough info so you can go away get some info and make up your own mind away from the press' message. It'd be scary if we agree on everything.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
Cheers, I'm not sure I totally agree with all of that, and I don't have enough information to hand to rebut it, but it's worth noting that Murdoch had said he favoured Gove to lead, at least two days before Boris knew he was going, which supports your first paragraph.
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Murdoch has been a big fan of Michael Gove for a long time. He was his employer a long time ago.
 
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petersaxton said:
Thanks for that. Maybe £35k isn't the right amount but I think there should be a lot of exceptions for people who we needed.
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Fair enough - personally I think we are totally poles apart on practically everything, from what constitutes lying to our political standing to what our core values are. And I'm not sure either will back down or come round to the others way of thinking so I'm going to step away and continue drinking and celebrating the Wales win tonight.

Nos Da/Good Night
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
As I said before - how dare you tell me that I shouldn't fight for my job, my standard of living and the money and social programmes that are keeping the poorest parts of Wales alive. You may have an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude and it doesn't concern you. But personally I'm disgusted and fearful and I'm going to fight as hard as possible
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Even by fraudulent means?
So if you lose democratically you want a debate which wont achieve anything?
What is your job that you are in fear of losing?
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
He tried to force through ill advised and unworkable academies where untrained people could be used instead of teachers. He pissed off the whole industry so much that there were protracted strikes, protests, he was booed at a Teachers conference (I forget which one sorry), he had to back down on academies and many teachers left the industry because of his treatment of them.
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If you are able to explain why they are "ill advised and unworkable" I may be able to consider it better
I've known people who have gone straight from University to work in schools and they were excellent people. I think training would be a good idea but I think if it's for too long then some good people may not want to choose teaching as a career.
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
Fair enough, I just hope I've given you enough info so you can go away get some info and make up your own mind away from the press' message. It'd be scary if we agree on everything.
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I've learned a lot from your posts, thanks again. <ok>

I've had a quick google to fill in some more of the gaps, so it's given me food for thought. We disagree on the fundamental part, which is being in or out of Europe, and I've learned nothing that makes me inclined to change my view on that. If anything, I'm even more comfortable with my choice.

Easy for me to say, but it's irrelevant, as we are in deed out, or at least working through the process of coming out. It's how we do that that's important, and I think people are largely in agreement on many of the key parts.

I think Corbyn's open door policy on immigration is going to be a big hurdle for him to get over as far a public support goes.
 
petersaxton said:
I think most sensible people would think that there would be £350m a week to spend on what the government of the day decided.
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What absolute guff

There won't be a penny or spend on anything, as there's no net gain to the treasury at all.

You're the worst accountant in the history of bean counters if you can't calculate that there'll be no net gain to the treasurys coffers post Brexit.
 
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