Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

[Smirnoffpriest]

Why is it more democratic than the UK?

Well the UK has an unelected Head of State, an unelected House of Lords, a Government that is under investigation for election fraud, and uses an archaic First Past the Post System.

In the EU every citizen votes for their MEP, countries are given proportional representation, MEPs are elected on Proportional Reprentation (I think) all MEPs debate legislation. Every country has a veto, and no EU law can be forced on a country without it's agreement.

 

[petersaxton]

That doesn't answer the question. £350 million is not sent to the EU every week so that is a lie. Is that hard to understand?

Did I say that £350m was sent to the EU every week?
I understand it perfectly thank you. From your statement you don't seem to understand the reality.
There's £350m allocated to the EU but some of that money is retained by the UK government to be spent as the EU decides. The rest is paid to the EU.
I hope that has cleared things up to your satisfaction.
I would recommend you read beyond the headlines.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

I am more into the voting route. Do you think that, if a decision is taken by democratic means, if you disagree with it you should then try to get it changed by non-democratic means?

What about changing it by a democratic route?

 

[DMD]

I can't understand why so many are supporting him, particularly not Tom Watson and Angela Eagle who were both so glowing about Corbyn only last year. But Blair is definitely part of the establishment and the establishment definitely want to stop Corbyn restore the neo-liberal journey the countries been on for the last 35 years and more than likely bury the Chilcott report as it'll embarrass lots of people and make other wars harder to start.

As you say though win or lose it's political suicide for these MPs

Do you feel the establishment you talk of crosses the boarder into Europe?

A big part of my issue with Europe is that it's too easy for multinationals and lobbyists to influence policies and decision making, or in the Blair example justice, and on a much larger scale, but far less visibly.

People like Campbell seem to trample all over democracy.

 

[paultheplug]

Did I say that £350m was sent to the EU every week?
I understand it perfectly thank you. From your statement you don't seem to understand the reality.
There's £350m allocated to the EU but some of that money is retained by the UK government to be spent as the EU decides. The rest is paid to the EU.
I hope that has cleared things up to your satisfaction.
I would recommend you read beyond the headlines.

You are wrong. The rebate is taken before the money is sent. Extra money is allocated by the EU for specific development projects throughout the UK

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

However you do it, it represents public opinion. The trouble is there aren't enough meetings of your MP with members of the public. At best, it's now in a carefully orchestrated TV studio or carefully vetted guests in an organised venue. You don't get MPs in local community halls talking to Jo Public.

A great sign of the times was that life long Jewish chap who was kicked out of a Labour party conference for shouting "rubbish" at something some Labour leader iirc was spouting. They later apoligised to him following the bad press. Bunch of ****ing pricks.

I'm pretty sure Corbyn and McDonald go around local venues meeting local constituents - of course with Corbyn this is usually in North London as that's where his constituency is...

 

[petersaxton]

Well the UK has an unelected Head of State, an unelected House of Lords, a Government that is under investigation for election fraud, and uses an archaic First Past the Post System.

In the EU every citizen votes for their MEP, countries are given proportional representation, MEPs are elected on Proportional Reprentation (I think) all MEPs debate legislation. Every country has a veto, and no EU law can be forced on a country without it's agreement.

Well the UK has an unelected Head of State - what has that got to do with democracy?
a Government that is under investigation for election fraud - in a few constituencies
uses an archaic First Past the Post System - which was voted for in a referendum
Every country has a veto - not on everything, very little in fact
no EU law can be forced on a country without it's agreement - it can
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

 

[Treble]

I'm pretty sure Corbyn and McDonald go around local venues meeting local constituents - of course with Corbyn this is usually in North London as that's where his constituency is...

Which is precisely why I wanted him to become Labour leader. I want that direct engagement with the electorate which seems to be so far removed with modern day politicians.

If I'm being honest I'm completed lost with Labour at the moment. I'm really not sure what's for the best, Corbyn or someone new. What I worry about, is a weak opposition to some twat like Gove coming in as PM. I'd see that as the weakest this country has ever been in my adult life. ****ing hell.

 

[petersaxton]

You are wrong. The rebate is taken before the money is sent. Extra money is allocated by the EU for specific development projects throughout the UK

Apologies, I accept you are right about the rebate but look at this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate
"There has been growing pressure in recent years from various EU member states for the rebate to be scrapped. This is partly because the recent additional member states of the EU, which are considerably poorer than the fifteen pre-2004 states, will be a considerable expense on the CAP and the EU budget in general. The view is put forward by many that this makes the UK rebate harder to accommodate within the EU budget, leveraged with the moral argument that all the new entrants are substantially poorer than the UK. The new entrants, however, are likely to be net recipients of EU funds and not net contributors like the UK and only Germany will make a larger contribution to these poorer entrants.[citation needed]

The rebate distorts UK funding negotiations with the EU. Normally, countries and independent agencies within each country bid to receive central EU funds. The UK government is aware that two-thirds of any EU funding will in effect be deducted from the rebate and come out of UK government funds. Thus the UK has only a one-third incentive to apply for EU funds. Other countries, whose contributions into the budget are not affected by funds they receive back, have no incentive to moderate their requests for funds.

Furthermore, many EU grants are conditional on the recipient finding a proportion of funding from local sources, frequently national or local government. This increases the proportion coming from UK government revenue even further. This has the effect of artificially reducing EU expenditure returning to the UK and worsening the deficit which the rebate is intended to redress."

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Do you feel the establishment you talk of crosses the boarder into Europe?

A big part of my issue with Europe is that it's too easy for multinationals and lobbyists to influence policies and decision making, or in the Blair example justice, and on a much larger scale, but far less visibly.

People like Campbell seem to trample all over democracy.

Strange you say that as one of the reasons that Murdoch was such an advocate for Brexit was because he had little influence in the EU but had massive influence in the UK where he can decide elections and is best friends with most of the last prime ministerial candidates (Blair, Cameron, Gove, Johnson, probably a few others).

Of course there is that issue with the EU though and it is a serious problem - it's one of the things I meant when I talked about neo-liberalism. But they'd still need to get all 28 (now 27) countries to agree to any changes, which is why TTIP isn't very likely to get passed at all. Whereas here it is almost guaranteed that some form of TTIP will get passed as there's such strong support by the Tories. And they are undertaking the most breathtaking de-regulation of industries - from Education to Health to food production and farm to heavy industry, skills levels, environmental and H&S standards will all be going down.

Visibility is an issue, but almost everything is reported on in the EU - it's one of it's negatives, massive bureaucracy, but it does mean that most money can be tracked and audits are carried out. Whereas besides the Freedom of Information tool (which the Tories want to do away with) we have little of those powers with our own government.

 

[petersaxton]

However you do it, it represents public opinion. The trouble is there aren't enough meetings of your MP with members of the public. At best, it's now in a carefully orchestrated TV studio or carefully vetted guests in an organised venue. You don't get MPs in local community halls talking to Jo Public.

A great sign of the times was that life long Jewish chap who was kicked out of a Labour party conference for shouting "rubbish" at something some Labour leader iirc was spouting. They later apoligised to him following the bad press. Bunch of ****ing pricks.

I don't know where you are based but that is exactly what our MP did on the Monday before the referendum vote.

 

[petersaxton]

What about changing it by a democratic route?

I'm in favour of democratic methods.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Which is precisely why I wanted him to become Labour leader. I want that direct engagement with the electorate which seems to be so far removed with modern day politicians.

If I'm being honest I'm completed lost with Labour at the moment. I'm really not sure what's for the best, Corbyn or someone new. What I worry about, is a weak opposition to some twat like Gove coming in as PM. I'd see that as the weakest this country has ever been in my adult life. ****ing hell.

I agree, it's a really scary thought, really, really scary. But Gove is incompetent (look at his record as Education Minister), Theresa May is ****ing scary - she is going to write our Bill of Rights - basically determining what human rights we have and how far she can go before she contravenes them, she wants to deport any foreigner who earns £35k or less, she's going to put in place the Snoopers Charter. She is cold, calculating and an adept politician. Notice how she gave the government's Remain stance lukewarm support but stood back and never got sullied by either campaign, but just waited to see who won. She knew that Cameron would fall whatever happened and Boris would never want the poisoned chalice of dealing with the Brexit. It's very much like Kevin Spacey in house of cards.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

I'm in favour of democratic methods.

I thought you didn't like this petition and was telling people to stop protesting?

 

[petersaxton]

Which is precisely why I wanted him to become Labour leader. I want that direct engagement with the electorate which seems to be so far removed with modern day politicians.

If I'm being honest I'm completed lost with Labour at the moment. I'm really not sure what's for the best, Corbyn or someone new. What I worry about, is a weak opposition to some twat like Gove coming in as PM. I'd see that as the weakest this country has ever been in my adult life. ****ing hell.

I am a big fan of Michael Gove. He's an intellectual but also has a great understand of people.

 

[Treble]

I agree, it's a really scary thought, really, really scary. But Gove is incompetent (look at his record as Education Minister), Theresa May is ****ing scary - she is going to write our Bill of Rights - basically determining what human rights we have and how far she can go before she contravenes them, she wants to deport any foreigner who earns £35k or less, she's going to put in place the Snoopers Charter. She is cold, calculating and an adept politician. Notice how she gave the government's Remain stance lukewarm support but stood back and never got sullied by either campaign, but just waited to see who won. She knew that Cameron would fall whatever happened and Boris would never want the poisoned chalice of dealing with the Brexit. It's very much like Kevin Spacey in house of cards.

I totally agree with this. I find it funny that she was the one who gave the speech on the "nasty party" and she'll probably advocate some of the nastiest ****ing policies ever if she becomes PM.

I would have preferred David Davis. He may have been a brexiteer but he stands by his principles and seems to have what I would class as honourable intentions.

I always preferred Ian Richardson. Far better machiavellian

 

[petersaxton]

I agree, it's a really scary thought, really, really scary. But Gove is incompetent (look at his record as Education Minister), Theresa May is ****ing scary - she is going to write our Bill of Rights - basically determining what human rights we have and how far she can go before she contravenes them, she wants to deport any foreigner who earns £35k or less, she's going to put in place the Snoopers Charter. She is cold, calculating and an adept politician. Notice how she gave the government's Remain stance lukewarm support but stood back and never got sullied by either campaign, but just waited to see who won. She knew that Cameron would fall whatever happened and Boris would never want the poisoned chalice of dealing with the Brexit. It's very much like Kevin Spacey in house of cards.

Why is he incompetent? What was incompetent about him when he was Secretary of State for Education (not a Minister).

 

[petersaxton]

I agree, it's a really scary thought, really, really scary. But Gove is incompetent (look at his record as Education Minister), Theresa May is ****ing scary - she is going to write our Bill of Rights - basically determining what human rights we have and how far she can go before she contravenes them, she wants to deport any foreigner who earns £35k or less, she's going to put in place the Snoopers Charter. She is cold, calculating and an adept politician. Notice how she gave the government's Remain stance lukewarm support but stood back and never got sullied by either campaign, but just waited to see who won. She knew that Cameron would fall whatever happened and Boris would never want the poisoned chalice of dealing with the Brexit. It's very much like Kevin Spacey in house of cards.

Have you got a link to that?

 

[Treble]

I am a big fan of Michael Gove. He's an intellectual but also has a great understand of people.

Sorry but he's a prize ****er who has single-handedly played politics with the education system and ****ed up schooling for a generation. If his handling of the education system is anything to go by, he will be an arrogant twat who will make a pigs ear of everything he touches.

 

[petersaxton]

I thought you didn't like this petition and was telling people to stop protesting?

I didn't like the fraudulent nature of the petition
Also I didnt think it would get anywhere because it was trying to bring in something that was already covered by an Act of Parliament - which is against the petition rules