Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

[Treble]

I'm struggling to get my head around the goings on in Labour.

As I understand it, the majority of labour politicians don't support Corbyn, but seemingly the membership do, but I don't see much effort in addressing that dilemma.

I really don't understand how the grass roots still support him. I was one of those who backed him when he was elected. I was under the misapprehension (as I see it now) that he would bring back some honorable, grounded truth to the Labour party. But the way he's conducted himself over the last couple of months, I feel he's just not a leader and worse still, lacks any credibility which is what I believed he had when I supported him.

 

[Tobes]

Straightener territory? If you wish, but I simply meant I like to meet someone as pathetic as yourself, it's interesting to see the difference that is always there.

Not what? There's quite a few options with you:
Intelligent
Rational
Sensible
Lucid
Interesting
Honest
Informed

I could go on, but never mind, we'll settle for agreeing with you that you're not any of those.

If you wish? So you fancy a straightener then?

I'm have all of those attributes btw you bile filled no mark

Have another pop at 4.25 am tomorrow love, just before you set off on your delivery round.

You come across as such a bitter and twisted loser, a bile filled man, who has no engagement with the economy and doesn't care it if bombs as a result of that reality. I'd wager you'd quite like to see it flounder, so that people who have the things that you don't have, but hanker after, get a dousing. It'd make you feel better about your ****tly little life I'm sure.

 

[DMD]

I really don't understand how the grass roots still support him. I was one of those who backed him when he was elected. I was under the misapprehension (as I see it now) that he would bring back some honorable, grounded truth to the Labour party. But the way he's conducted himself over the last couple of months, I feel he's just not a leader and worse still, lacks any credibility which is what I believed he had when I supported him.

I don't particularly support his policies, but initially I thought he brought something different to the argument, but he's certainly been found wanting over recent week.

It's bad news, as we really need a strong opposition right now.

 

[petersaxton]

I've sometimes wondered if parties were to the detriment of politics, as they polarise people, and have them supporting issues that they don't necessarily believe in. I think recent events have shown the flaw in my logic on that one.

There may be extremes among the electorate but most are in the middle ground. Many people who join parties are more likely to be at the extremes. If we were able to elect MPs on their ability and judgement and not because they supported particular policies we may be able to get better government.

 

[Treble]

Just to keep you factual, how about qoting one of my posts where I haven't dealt with the facts (at that time). It's a serious invitation, as I'm as bored with the blather as you see to be.

I can't be bothered tbh simply because it serves me no purpose. As for the bit in bold, it's becoming mindnumbing to be honest. I come on here just to see if we've moved forward at all. Part of the problem is it's such a close half and half split. Whichever way the vote had gone, the fact that there was always going to be roughly 49% of the population against the outcome, it was never going to just move on.

 

[DMD]

There may be extremes among the electorate but most are in the middle ground. Many people who join parties are more likely to be at the extremes. If we were able to elect MPs on their ability and judgement and not because they supported particular policies we may be able to get better government.

In theory, it should keep politicians more in tune with the people they're supposed to represent, so with concessions, policies should become more representative, and people feel more engaged with.

 

[DMD]

I can't be bothered tbh simply because it serves me no purpose. As for the bit in bold, it's becoming mindnumbing to be honest. I come on here just to see if we've moved forward at all. Part of the problem is it's such a close half and half split. Whichever way the vote had gone, the fact that there was always going to be roughly 49% of the population against the outcome, it was never going to just move on.

I don't think that's an option, even in the short term. It has to move on, no matter what the opinion on the vote, even another referendum won't undo much, we are where we are, and have to find the best way of moving forward. Just complaining about where we are will achieve nothing.

 

[Treble]

There may be extremes among the electorate but most are in the middle ground. Many people who join parties are more likely to be at the extremes. If we were able to elect MPs on their ability and judgement and not because they supported particular policies we may be able to get better government.

The trouble with this approach is, would we ever get anything done. Or would everything grind to a halt through arguments an indecision. To some extent you NEED those discrete particular policies.

 

[petersaxton]

I can't be bothered tbh simply because it serves me no purpose. As for the bit in bold, it's becoming mindnumbing to be honest. I come on here just to see if we've moved forward at all. Part of the problem is it's such a close half and half split. Whichever way the vote had gone, the fact that there was always going to be roughly 49% of the population against the outcome, it was never going to just move on.

The referendum has been decided. There's plenty on the Remain side who accept it is time to implement the democratic result and get on with leaving the EU. Even the people who voted Remain realised there's no way of stopping the car crash and were just scared of making their own decisions from outside. People talked about "reforming the EU" but that would never happen while the EU leaders thought they could get away with doing what they want. They now realise that they can't do what they want and keep the EU intact so they may change - but how much? The minimum possible?

 

[DMD]

The trouble with this approach is, would we ever get anything done. Or would everything grind to a halt through arguments an indecision. To some extent you NEED those discrete particular policies.

Could those discrete policies be better informed if politicians could get their electorates views into the process in some way when they're being formed?

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

I'm struggling to get my head around the goings on in Labour.

As I understand it, the majority of labour politicians don't support Corbyn, but seemingly the membership do, but I don't see much effort in addressing that dilemma.

Basically there's a coup started by a PR company called Portland House - one of the Directors is Alistair Campbell, it's linked to Tony Blair, has a ex-Sky man as another Director, they organised this coup 6 months ago regardless of the referendum result. They say that it is Corbyn's fault that only 63% of the Labour party voted to remain (1% less than the strongly Remain SNP party), but what it is really about is an orchestrated attempt to force him to resign before the Chilcott Report is released next week in which Corbyn has already said he will demand charges for anyone found guilty, including Blair. Blair doesn't want the leader of the Labour Party in the dispatch box demanding his head.

The problem comes that the PLP (Labour Parliamentary Labour Party - essentially the MPs) are so out of touch with the public and with what party members want that they tried putting different shades of Blairites up for nomination - Milliband, Cooper, Kendall, Burnham. The result was the Labour Party hemoragging votes and membership numbers hugely since 1997, to a new low in 2010. Little interest was paid in the new leadership campaign until Corbyn was put forward. When they realised that Corbyn might get on the ticket and how much public appeal he had, the PLP panicked and tried to stop his name being put on the ticket, then they tried changing the rules. After that failed they started a sustained campaign of personal and professional attacks in a smear campaign - totally forgetting about the Tory's - at the same time as Abstaining from voting against the Welfare Bill.

Corbyn won with the biggest landslide of any leader of any party EVER (a quarter of million people voted for him!) he won 60% of the vote in a 4 horse race! In spite of the mud slinging, smear campaigns, the lies. People saw through them and his honesty and the fact he actually had policies that made sense, worked for working class people and answered problems important to them (rather than saying 'I'm a Woman' like Cooper) had huge appeal for disaffected people beaten down by years of ideological austerity.

Now at a time when he has won a party leadership, increased party membership, won bi-elections and did better (or as good as - soz can't be arsed to check) as Milliband at his height in the local elections. But the claim he is unelectable is still made and any of the hundreds of thousands that support him (as opposed to the few thousand that support the other Labour candidates) are dismissed as either far-left 'loonie-lefties' who couldn't possibly represent 'normal' people, or as needing a heart transplant, or even worse as Tory's pretending to be supporters to keep Corbyn in power!

As such they say we need to ditch 'unelectable' hugely popular and democratically elected Corbyn, disregard the will of the party members, believe a 177 MPs and a PR company (funded by HSBC funded) campaign, forget about the 350k plus members he has attracted to the party. Ignore the many warnings from members that they will defect if Corbyn is axed.

And instead place a more right wing member in charge who is more likely to win back some of the 25% of the voters who voted Tory. While at the same time further disaffecting the 35% who didn't vote. Not forgetting the old Charles Kennedy period Lib Dem supporters who defected after Nick Clegg's coalition with the Tory's, or UKIP supporters - who now that they have achieved their aim of getting out of Europe may actually want to achieve some other aims the parties supporters have polled strongly in - namely re-nationalisation, protecting the NHS and other policies that Corbyn has polled strongest among their voters in.

 

[petersaxton]

I don't think that's an option, even in the short term. It has to move on, no matter what the opinion on the vote, even another referendum won't undo much, we are where we are, and have to find the best way of moving forward. Just complaining about where we are will achieve nothing.

A few people WILL just complain. That's what they do. It's not just the referendum - they just want things to complain about. They realise their views will never be democratically implemented so they just keep being a nuisance. It's up to government to get on with government.

 

[Treble]

I don't think that's an option, even in the short term. It has to move on, no matter what the opinion on the vote, even another referendum won't undo much, we are where we are, and have to find the best way of moving forward. Just complaining about where we are will achieve nothing.

I think the problem is that we can't agree on where we are Some people have real concerns. If we want to come together we need to at least acknowledge people's fears/concerns and try to allay them. I'd be delighted as **** if someone could do that with me. I have 3 little kids, I think about my finances in terms of what I've put in place to look after their future. I won't lie, I'm concerned, but also a little pissed off at what the decision last week has meant for me and mine. I'm not the only one that feels that way (whether they voted in or out) so I'd like someone to show us the best way of moving forward by addressing those fears/concerns.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

I don't think that's an option, even in the short term. It has to move on, no matter what the opinion on the vote, even another referendum won't undo much, we are where we are, and have to find the best way of moving forward. Just complaining about where we are will achieve nothing.

TBH I disagree, IMO when your jobs are under threat, your social programmes are under threat, your own country (think particularly Wales but could extend to the UK), even the very existence of the UK is under threat then the worst thing possible to do is lie down and accept it. Especially when you've been lied to consistently (The EU costs £350m - LIE, we'll give this to the NHS - LIE, Wales (and Cornwall) won't lose a penny - LIE, the EU is undemocratic - LIE).

Then you've got the terrifying prospect of Theresa 'I want to be Milk Snatcher Thatcher' May writing a new Bill of Rights for us and enacting the Snoopers Charter enabling her to collect date on every single thing we do online anytime anywhere for any reason!

 

[petersaxton]

The trouble with this approach is, would we ever get anything done. Or would everything grind to a halt through arguments an indecision. To some extent you NEED those discrete particular policies.

That's always a risk. But I didn't mean that we just get everybody in a room and argue about it. The people who want to be leaders should put forward their main policies and see what support they get and then if they get elected they choose people who are happy to support their main policies. The MPs would align themselves with blocks in parliament rather than work their way up through a party and trying to get the party to do what they believe in. The MPs are supporting policies not parties and can change their allegiancies as the policies change. I'm not saying that the idea is perfect but it's better than the system we have now.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

TBH I disagree, IMO when your jobs are under threat, your social programmes are under threat, your own country (think particularly Wales but could extend to the UK), even the very existence of the UK is under threat then the worst thing possible to do is lie down and accept it. Especially when you've been lied to consistently (The EU costs £350m - LIE, we'll give this to the NHS - LIE, Wales (and Cornwall) won't lose a penny - LIE, the EU is undemocratic - LIE).

Then you've got the terrifying prospect of Theresa 'I want to be Milk Snatcher Thatcher' May writing a new Bill of Rights for us and enacting the Snoopers Charter enabling her to collect date on every single thing we do online anytime anywhere for any reason!

As the manics say 'If you tolerate this, then your children will be next'

 

[Fez]

This is why I am a great believer in Transferable Vote. It was resoundingly defeated at the referendum on voting. The advantage of the system is that it takes power away from the parties and towards individuals. I think people voted against it because they were worried about consistently hung parliaments. That would be a problem in the short term but in the long term it would create a new kind of politics.

Do the Democratic Republic of the Congo use the Transferable Vote? I don't know how good their parties are, but, as they are on record as having the biggest average penis size, they will almost certainly have a well hung parliament.

 

[Treble]

A few people WILL just complain. That's what they do. It's not just the referendum - they just want things to complain about. They realise their views will never be democratically implemented so they just keep being a nuisance. It's up to government to get on with government.

Really? Would you have felt the same if there hadn't been a referendum. I think that's a bit rich tbh. You may take that as an attempt to wind you up but it's not. It's easy to make these remarks when government is on your side. You said earlier that politicians should seek the opinion of the electorate so you're also contradicting yourself a bit here.

 

[DMD]

Basically there's a coup started by a PR company called Portland House - one of the Directors is Alistair Campbell, it's linked to Tony Blair, has a ex-Sky man as another Director, they organised this coup 6 months ago regardless of the referendum result. They say that it is Corbyn's fault that only 63% of the Labour party voted to remain (1% less than the strongly Remain SNP party), but what it is really about is an orchestrated attempt to force him to resign before the Chilcott Report is released next week in which Corbyn has already said he will demand charges for anyone found guilty, including Blair. Blair doesn't want the leader of the Labour Party in the dispatch box demanding his head.

The problem comes that the PLP (Labour Parliamentary Labour Party - essentially the MPs) are so out of touch with the public and with what party members want that they tried putting different shades of Blairites up for nomination - Milliband, Cooper, Kendall, Burnham. The result was the Labour Party hemoragging votes and membership numbers hugely since 1997, to a new low in 2010. Little interest was paid in the new leadership campaign until Corbyn was put forward. When they realised that Corbyn might get on the ticket and how much public appeal he had, the PLP panicked and tried to stop his name being put on the ticket, then they tried changing the rules. After that failed they started a sustained campaign of personal and professional attacks in a smear campaign - totally forgetting about the Tory's - at the same time as Abstaining from voting against the Welfare Bill.

Corbyn won with the biggest landslide of any leader of any party EVER (a quarter of million people voted for him!) he won 60% of the vote in a 4 horse race! In spite of the mud slinging, smear campaigns, the lies. People saw through them and his honesty and the fact he actually had policies that made sense, worked for working class people and answered problems important to them (rather than saying 'I'm a Woman' like Cooper) had huge appeal for disaffected people beaten down by years of ideological austerity.

Now at a time when he has won a party leadership, increased party membership, won bi-elections and did better (or as good as - soz can't be arsed to check) as Milliband at his height in the local elections. But the claim he is unelectable is still made and any of the hundreds of thousands that support him (as opposed to the few thousand that support the other Labour candidates) are dismissed as either far-left 'loonie-lefties' who couldn't possibly represent 'normal' people, or as needing a heart transplant, or even worse as Tory's pretending to be supporters to keep Corbyn in power!

As such they say we need to ditch 'unelectable' hugely popular and democratically elected Corbyn, disregard the will of the party members, believe a 177 MPs and a PR company (funded by HSBC funded) campaign, forget about the 350k plus members he has attracted to the party. Ignore the many warnings from members that they will defect if Corbyn is axed.

And instead place a more right wing member in charge who is more likely to win back some of the 25% of the voters who voted Tory. While at the same time further disaffecting the 35% who didn't vote. Not forgetting the old Charles Kennedy period Lib Dem supporters who defected after Nick Clegg's coalition with the Tory's, or UKIP supporters - who now that they have achieved their aim of getting out of Europe may actually want to achieve some other aims the parties supporters have polled strongly in - namely re-nationalisation, protecting the NHS and other policies that Corbyn has polled strongest among their voters in.

Thank you for taken time out and posting such an informative post. It's helped clear a few things in my mind.

Without prejudging the outcome, I guess the publication of the report will only shift the angle of attack, rather than end the battle, so how do you see it playing out?

 

[petersaxton]

I think the problem is that we can't agree on where we are Some people have real concerns. If we want to come together we need to at least acknowledge people's fears/concerns and try to allay them. I'd be delighted as **** if someone could do that with me. I have 3 little kids, I think about my finances in terms of what I've put in place to look after their future. I won't lie, I'm concerned, but also a little pissed off at what the decision last week has meant for me and mine. I'm not the only one that feels that way (whether they voted in or out) so I'd like someone to show us the best way of moving forward by addressing those fears/concerns.

You may not know what is going to happen now but when the new Prime Minister is in place you will have a better idea of what is going to happen. Nothing will be certain though.