Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

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How will you vote in the EU referendum ?

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originallambrettaman said:
I thought this, but when I investigated, they really don't.

They have to pay to be a member of the European Free Trade arrangement, their net contribution is €107 per capita, against our €139m per capita contribution, yet they get no say on the legislation passed. They also had to agree to abide by the Schegen Area agreement, so allow free movement of people and actually have higher percentage net migration numbers than we do.

In addition, though they have in theory got the right to reject some EU laws, they've never actually tested their ability to do so and have accepted all EU laws (mainly because they get a 15% rebate that the EU can withdraw if they don't accept everything). They do have the ability to negotiate some trade deals and have some arrangements that differ to other EU states (mainly in the fishing industry), but they're effectively members of the EU in all but name.
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Pretty much what I posted. They're in, in all but name...plus freedom of choice. They decided to comply, and they (the voters) can decide not to. They have additional freedoms, and no real penalties, as well as keeping control.

Their system suits them, to such a degree that they're among the best performers in Europe.
 
"More warnings. As they say, there has never been such unanimity amongst respected economists since the
last time they were unanimous (irrespective of whether they were right)."

<fixed>
 
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Smirnoffpriest said:
While I can understand what you're saying and the points you are making, I'd disagree in so much as it is the chronic underfunding and the privatisation of lots of the NHS that is breaking it. Mental Health care alone has been crippled by cuts, leading to more people needing long and short term stays in hospitals, putting an additional strain on an NHS which has been cut to breaking point already, and is further affected by companies like G4S taking on contracts (like 999 services) and running them at increased costs for worse performance. It is the same with affordable/social housing, there's been a huge cut in the amount of affordable housing built while a huge number of social/council houses have been sold off, many to private landlords, driving up rent and damaging the chances of young people to get on the property ladder.

The EU guarantee's a minimum wage, although the Tory government are even in breach of that, as through creative accounting they aren't offering anywhere near a minimum wage that matches the increases in cost of living and inflation. I'd be very wary of removing this guarantee and expecting wages to increase rather than decrease.

There is also a big drive (as is always in neoliberal economies) to deregulate industries and businesses, allowing them to cut corners and disregard things like employee welfare and provisions. The Tories are pushing to deregulate many industries. They have severely curtailed workers rights and are going to remove our participation in the European Convention of Human Rights. Further warning signs that a removal of the social protections of the EU wouldn't lead to anything resembling higher wages, more freedoms, or better conditions for the majority.
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I agree with all that and well written. I am certainly worried what the Tories will get up to if not limited by EU regulations, but I take a longer term approach. A bit off topic but people need to see what the Tories are really like and then have the opportunity to vote in a government that is best for the majority of people in this country. I don't think the EU or the Tories are that!
 
The RDBD said:
"More warnings. As they say, there has never been such unanimity amongst respected economists since the
last time they were unanimous (irrespective of whether they were right)."

<fixed>
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That 'fixes' nothing! The warnings are clear! The economy will suffer. The only thing open to debate is how badly and for how long.

A risk and a penalty not worth taking, and for what? Vague, groundless promises that 'things will be better'
 
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The RDBD said:
And as there appears to be no consensus (unanimous or otherwise) on the "only thing" ...
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The consensus amongst respected economists, top think tanks, major global bodies such as The World Bank, OECD, IMF, etc, etc, are all the same. The U.K. Economy will suffer...

As the article says, there has never been such unanimity amongst respected economists. For those of you who want to take the risk that they're all wrong, good luck! The U.K. economy is going to need it!...
 
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The RDBD said:
And as there appears to be no consensus (unanimous or otherwise) on the "only thing" ...
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It's weird there's a consensus among respected economists that the economy will suffer, all the major international financial institutions have said that we should stay in and it will have negative effects if we leave. There is projections that the value of the pound will drop from anywhere up to 25% of its value, some have compared it to Black Tuesday in the early 90s for similar (short-term) effect, there are warnings about the effect on business and investment in the country. Examples to China and other even vaguely similar situations to this totally unprecedented situation have been used, where none experienced anything positive to their markets.

And yet you seem concerned that no one is saying exactly how long the negative effects will last and no one is agreed on exactly how bad it will get if we Brexit?
 
NowsufferinginSpain said:
The consensus amongst respected economists, top think tanks, major global bodies such as The World Bank, OECD, IMF, etc, etc, are all the same. The U.K. Economy will suffer..
Click to expand...

But no consensus on how bad, how long etc.
In other news, "respected" meteorologists have never been so unanimous in saying that
night will follow day ...
 
Smirnoffpriest said:
And yet you seem concerned that no one is saying exactly how long the negative effects will last and no one is agreed on exactly how bad it will get if we Brexit?
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Not concerned.
Just having great amusement at these so-called "respected" doing nothing more than reading
out press releases from the Ministry of the bleeding obvious.
 
The RDBD said:
But no consensus on how bad, how long etc.
In other news, "respected" meteorologists have never been so unanimous in saying that
night will follow day ...
Click to expand...

'Witticisms', If that's what they're intended to be, won't detract from the facts. As I said at the start, the economy will suffer. How long for is the only thing open to debate.

And, incidentally, the reason meteorologists predict night to follow day is because it's blindingly bleeding obvious. Just as what the economists are saying about Brexit is!
 
Mr propaganda said:
So INNERS what now for you?

David Cameron said earlier that he would lobby for further changes to free movement rules in the light of European Court rulings if the UK votes to remain tomorrow, saying the process of EU reform will "continue on Friday".

But at a press conference today, EU Commission President Jean Claude Juncker said:

British voters have to know there will be no kind of any negotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive, and we gave the maximum we could give, so there will be no kind of renegotiation."
Click to expand...

It really doesn't matter what Juncker thinks, the member states make the legislation, not him and there's increasing pressure from several of the states to introduce some migration restrictions.
 
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