Eid Mubarak

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Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
In which case, they cannot dismiss people questioning their choice or elements of their chosen faith in the way some did earlier in this thread.

Their faith is equal in status to reptilian shape shifters, santa and the tooth fairy.
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They can dismiss people questioning their choice, as it's their choice, and therefore their business.

Questioning elements of Islam is different. How we as Westerners perceive the place of women within Islam for example, but do we understand enough about how that tangibly manifests itself for Westernised Muslims?
 
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Tobes said:
They can dismiss people questioning their choice, as it's their choice, and therefore their business.

Questioning elements of Islam is different. How we as Westerners perceive the place of women within Islam for example, but do we understand enough about how that tangibly manifests itself for Westernised Muslims?
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If they bring it to a public forum, and claim superior knowledge, then they can't hide behind it being "faith".

Perception of women within islam? Perhaps, perhaps not, but then again, different muslims have different views on it too. Some have 'faith' in contradictory explanations of elements of the religion.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
If they bring it to a public forum, and claim superior knowledge, then they can't hide behind it being "faith".
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This thread was started by a Muslim who was highlighting a festival, and wished all well - whether Muslims or not. I wouldn't call that 'bringing it'.

In fact I had no idea about the Eid festival so asked about it's origins and significance, so he kindly bothered himself to post the background of it, so I could understand.

It was only when there were some barbed jibes thrown that it turned into him somehow having to justify his faith.

Let me ask you a question, if I posted a thread wishing all and sundry Happy Christmas, would it end up with me having to justify my Christianity within 3 pages?

I think not.
 
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Tobes said:
This thread was started by a Muslim who was highlighting a festival, and wished all well - whether Muslims or not. I wouldn't call that 'bringing it'.

In fact I had no idea about the Eid festival so asked about it's origins and significance, so he kindly bothered himself to post the background of it, so I could understand.

It was only when there were some barbed jibes thrown that it turned into him somehow having to justify his faith.

Let me ask you a question, if I posted a thread wishing all and sundry Happy Christmas, would it end up with me having to justify my Christianity within 3 pages?

I think not.
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That may well be how the thread started, but that isn't what I was asking about, and threads rarely stay on teh topic of the OP. If anything, this is odd in that it is on topic.

Threads on Christmas regularly get into questions about its origins and relevance, often pointing out that, like easter, it's an adoption of a pre-existing festival and questioning the whole concept..

My main point is that many strongly religious people have dismissed other religions, in the self and same way atheists dismiss all. In fact, it's probable that atheists have looked more closely at various religions before making their choice. They're only one god apart.

They've either considered it, and dismissed it, in which case I'm interested in what grounds they dismissed it on, or they haven't considered it, in which case I'd argue that their faith is by definition poorly informed.

People can have faith in islam, reptilian shape shifters ruling the earth, santa, or Macclesfield becoming European Champions. They all fall into the same category.

There's nothing to fear in discussing that.
 
luvgonzo said:
I was thinking that myself, people want attack Islam at every opportunity and with very little understanding of it.
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I'm not attacking it, I'm asking. It's not beyond questioning. If anything, a strong religion should welcome the opportunity of correcting any misconceptions.

On this occasion, I'm asking as much about other religions too, albeit mainly those revised versions from the same Abrahamic root.
 
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luvgonzo said:
Except that they don't fall into the same category unless you are including all religion into that sentence and simply stating your opinion?
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Not all religion believes in a creator or omnipotent being, so not all fall into that precise category, but Judaism, Christainity, islam, shape shifters, santa etc, certainly fall in the same bracket in that they make extra-ordinary claims that are not supported by tangible evidence.

It's not opinion, it's a simple statement of fact.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
People can have faith in islam, reptilian shape shifters ruling the earth, santa, or Macclesfield becoming European Champions. They all fall into the same category.

They've either considered it, and dismissed it, in which case I'm interested in what grounds they dismissed it on, or they haven't considered it, in which case I'd argue that their faith is by definition poorly informed.
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Only to someone who has a faith, then they wouldn't fall into the same category at all and they'd be highly likely to see that comparison as disrespectful and it'd therefore hardly be conducive to a reasoned discussion on the issue would it?

Barring those who've taken up religion in later life or are converts, then you already know the answer to the second question, they've almost certainly not made a 'choice', as Muslims are largely born Muslims aren't they. So basically you're calling them poorly informed with what is a rhetorical question. I find the motives dubious tbh.
 
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Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
Not all religion believes in a creator or omnipotent being, so not all fall into that precise category, but Judaism, Christainity, islam, shape shifters, santa etc, certainly fall in the same bracket in that they make extra-ordinary claims that are not supported by tangible evidence.

It's not opinion, it's a simple statement of fact.
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Tobes said:
Only to someone who has a faith, then they wouldn't fall into the same category at all and they'd be highly likely to see that comparison as disrespectful and it'd therefore hardly be conducive to a reasoned discussion on the issue would it?

Barring those who've taken up religion in later life or are converts, then you already know the answer to the second question, they've almost certainly not made a 'choice', as Muslims are largely born Muslims aren't they. So basically you're calling them poorly informed with what is a rhetorical question. I find the motives dubious tbh.
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This.
 
They may well see it as disrespectful. It doesn't make it so.

Being born it a religion doesn't preclude free choice, unless fear instilled by those indoctrinating children limits free thinking, which is hardly a plus point for the religion.

It still makes it a poorly informed choice.
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
Have you studied all other religions in detail before choosing Islam? If you did, what criteria for 'proof' did you apply?
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I will answer the question simply for you in this case in the sense you are being genuine.

I was born in to a Muslim family, I read up on Islam when I was young but never adhered to it at all to be honest. I would say to the point where I probably wasn't any different to any of the guys here in terms of partying and living same as any other western Christian/Atheist guys.

I only started looking in to life differently in my mid 20's and asking questions that there has to be more to life then simply partying and dying and that's it. I have studied Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and various others before I came in to conclusion that's Islam was the way to of life.

I don't dismiss Christianity, as I do believe and follow lot of the rules, which are same as Islam but I also believe Christianity over time has been corrupted from the original scriptures to suit the agendas of people not only that I believe that Christianity came along to correct Judaism as they were getting strayed and then the final revelation Qur'an.

I do believe in the oneness of God, also Islam in its simple form if you like means "Submission to God" which has been happening since time, its only when man gets involved and corrupts is for his own selfish reasons people start blaming the system rather than the person. I don't believe something just happens by coincidence, there has to be a plan something/someone has to be the designer of it all, for example a PC/Laptop just don't happen there had to be a designer/maker, so in complex world surely you can't just say it just happened because of big bang.
 
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highburyal said:
By that logic it would mean or seem to be muslim women are dumb downed so much they dont know the difference between a good position and a **** position and requires the non-Muslims to decide for them.

I am happy to discuss/debate with people my belief but there needs to respect from both sides and see each persons perspective and try to get an understanding of each other, when of the cuff remarks are made just to be insulting then that's not debating. I am on my phone at the moment so i will respond to your points properly when i am on my laptop with reference from islamic perspective, i am not sure how much you know about arabic language itself but to do a literal translation in english is not as simple as most people make it out to be though.
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When did I even vaguely hint at Muslim women being stupid or dumbed down?
Intelligent people can be put or put themselves in bad positions all the time, sometimes being well aware that they're doing it.
There are intelligent Scientologists, despite the whole thing clearly being a ludicrous con.
Smart people sign up to Ponzi schemes and MLM all the time. That doesn't make either neutral or benign.

My knowledge of Arabic is virtually zero and I'm aware that there are even further issues with the Classical Arabic of the Quran.
Christianity suffers from the same issue and there's even some suggestion that the whole virgin birth thing is a mistranslation.
Tobes said:
Let me ask you a question, if I posted a thread wishing all and sundry Happy Christmas, would it end up with me having to justify my Christianity within 3 pages?

I think not.
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I doubt people would even think that you were a Christian.
 
highburyal said:
I don't dismiss Christianity, as I do believe and follow lot of the rules, which are same as Islam but I also believe Christianity over time has been corrupted from the original scriptures to suit the agendas of people not only that I believe that Christianity came along to correct Judaism as they were getting strayed and then the final revelation Qur'an.
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If you don't mind me asking, how do you square that away, when the Quran calls the Bible and Torah revelations from God?
It also says that the word of God cannot be changed, so wouldn't that make corrupting them impossible?
 
Hull City AFC (DMD) said:
Not all religion believes in a creator or omnipotent being, so not all fall into that precise category, but Judaism, Christainity, islam, shape shifters, santa etc, certainly fall in the same bracket in that they make extra-ordinary claims that are not supported by tangible evidence.

It's not opinion, it's a simple statement of fact.
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But just because your limited in knowledge and there is not enough tangible evidence according to you, it shouldn't mean there cannot be a creator who far outweighs the limited knowledge you have?

Yours is an opinion not a fact...
 
Tobes said:
Only to someone who has a faith, then they wouldn't fall into the same category at all and they'd be highly likely to see that comparison as disrespectful and it'd therefore hardly be conducive to a reasoned discussion on the issue would it?

Barring those who've taken up religion in later life or are converts, then you already know the answer to the second question, they've almost certainly not made a 'choice', as Muslims are largely born Muslims aren't they. So basically you're calling them poorly informed with what is a rhetorical question. I find the motives dubious tbh.
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Read him a mile off boring insecure ****.
 
PleaseNotPoll said:
If you don't mind me asking, how do you square that away, when the Quran calls the Bible and Torah revelations from God?
It also says that the word of God cannot be changed, so wouldn't that make corrupting them impossible?
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I do believe Bible and Torah to be revelations from God yes, but corrupted in the sense that they have moved away from the original way of life and started to change the messages being put forward to the people rather than the text in that sense. I believe the people and those who followed the true scriptures do and did listen to new message that was brought to them and followed the messenger of the time.

For instance, Torah was revealed and Jews followed until such point they started deviating from the message and therefore Prophet was sent again Jesus (as) to reaffirm the faith and bring the people back in the fold if you like, some listened some and some didn't, those with ulterior motive made him in to divinity not a man, whereas he is a man and prophet of God. This all comes to linguistic and time of the message, for instance I believe Jesus(as) never claimed to be son of God but was referred to and he said son of God in the sense at the time who ever obeyed and feared God was referred to as "Son of God" not in literal term.

The messages before were for the those tribes or people of the nation if you like, whereas I believe Qur'an is the final revelation for all mankind and all time as guidance to how you live and believe.

The Qur'an for instance is preserved not only in terms of books but memory, if all the Qur'an in the world right now was destroyed I can guarantee that within a day you would have another written version as it was before it was destroyed. There are millions who know the whole Qur'an by memory and all muslims to an extent know at least a portion of it by memory.
 
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