Deserving Monaco Winner

[Smoggy]

Nobody wins because they deserve it. You either win or you don't.

There are no members on this forum that post objective views. They just complain about anyone that disagrees with them.

If both Vettel and Alonso collided and Button had won then Button would be called a tactical genius.

If Button would have tried to put an overtake move then he would be described as heroic racing genius.

If Button would have clipped Vettel in order to get first place then he would have been described as a British tactical heroic genius.

If Hamilton tried anything like that then he is described as just a cheat.

Anyway, welcome to Basil and Smoggy to this forum. You will of course have to obey the strict caste system that they operate here. You two are labelled as "newbies" so you have to watch your step and doff your cap to the more senior more knowledgeable and more powerful members that have decided that they are "Senior" to everyone else. They're ambitions are to achieve fuhrer status. Then you're opinions on the Monaco race outcome will not even be allowed.

Hi RI,

I noticed you haven't followed the caste system so far I certainly don't intend to follow it either. If I post my opinion on here, I do expect others to see it as just that. I have no problem with anyone giving me facts if they wish to enlighten me or correct me on a point, but unless there are facts then my opinion is just as valid as theirs!

Anyway, thanks for the welcome RI

 

[cosicave]

Basil, I never criticised Button, I asked whether he would have been a deserving winner if he had inherited the victory in Monanco, simple as that, no blame, no knocking of his ability or slight on his character. As for my comments on Hamilton, I said I was undecided on whether Hamilton should have err'd on the side of caution at Monaco, I still do but that does not automatically default to me defending his antics. I used the term 'discretion being the better part of valour' (which Cosi has alluded to regarding JB's tactics) but I also think that fortune favours the brave.

Which brings me to some of the points Cosi has made; yes JB was playing the tactical game, yes he was thinking of the marathon and not the sprint, but there will come a time when JB will have to sprint for himself and not wait for the others to 'punch themselves out'. If he or any driver for that matter adopts the 'slow and steady wins the day' mentality, they may find the WDC has passed them by. I was using JB as the example based on the comments he made, not on my observations of that race, no criticism of JB, just a question, simple as that.

Cosi, Basil, please don't be sanctimonious when other people ask a question on these forums. I understand there is a 'bigger picture of racing', I watch it for the technology, the skill of (all) the drivers, the tactics of (all) the teams (good and bad), but above all the excitement of it all. Please remember, these forums are for everyone, from the people who have a hand in shaping the future racing drivers all the way down to the couch potato and that is exactly the audience F1 caters for too. The thinly veiled contempt you have both shown in your post towards 'some people' and 'someone who does not understand the bigger picture' does little to make me respect your opinion any more than you clearly disregard mine. If either of you think that I don't understand F1 or the bigger picture of racing or I watch it just to see crashes, at least grow a pair and say it directly, I'd respect you both a lot more.

One more thing Cosi, what is the purpose of a race then?

Hi Smoggy. Just back to read since I last posted in this thread.

• I'd like to offer an apology if you felt I was being sanctimonious. However, in spite of reference to what I do, I'd like you to know that that was certainly not my intent. It was simply an attempt to explain the reasoning behind stating my opinion, which was to follow that first sentence.
• I have no objection to anyone expressing any 'on-topic' view, regardless of whether it is counter to, or strongly disagrees with mine. Indeed, this is what I would expect in any forum.

On the point of "there will come a time when JB will have to sprint for himself and not wait for the others to 'punch themselves out' "; I could not agree more! I was not suggesting that what he did at Monaco is always best; just that in this particular instance I believed it to be the wisest strategy, due to the particular, rather unusual circumstances at the time. And I'm with you that fortune often favours the brave (another aspect which a driver must factor in to any and all decisions). By way of example, that is exactly what Button needed to do in 2008 [edit: I meant 2009 of course!] as he allowed his Championship lead to dwindle; finally taking the bull by the horns with a tremendously spirited drive in Brazil. Until that point, I would agree that he had indeed perhaps been too circumspect.

My point above was not meant to be a criticism of your opinion, Smoggy. Please don't take it personally that some of the things may have appeared to be at odds with part of your point of view. My point was just my opinion, just as yours was yours and RI's is his.

What is important to me is that a debate remains focussed on the subject matter, as you had.

I'm still trying to find an answer to this question: "One more thing Cosi, what is the purpose of a race then? ", since I don't really understand what you're getting at, unless you mean precisely what your words say. So, I'll attempt to give an answer (only my opinion of course) in the hope that it helps:
The purpose of a race is to compare performance.
More specifically, the purpose of a motor-race is to compare the combination of driver/vehicle performance, and if these are sub-divided into teams, a further purpose is to compare the relative performance between those teams.
I hasten to add that the purpose of a motor race has nothing to do with entertainment: from a competitor's point of view, this is entirely a side issue: essentially a by-product of the spectacle and appreciation of seeing other people and machines doing extraordinary things, according to the parameters of the particular competition.

And RI: I want to emphasise that I have no problem with someone disagreeing about the topic at hand. There is absolutely no reason you should feel this. By all means disagree strongly if you feel that you want to; it makes for healthy and vigorous debate if it remains focussed on-topic and not personalised, or appearing to be a personalised attack. By all means do it. I'm sure that it will add to the forum.

Cheers.

P.S. Incidentally, I am not taking what has been said as a personal attack. This is just an attempt to clarify my previous post, lest it be misunderstood.

 

[cosicave]

Something else I'd like to add, since there may be some ill-feeling which I'm sure nobody wants.

Everybody's opinion is equally valid. And I mean everybody's. The 'title' under a member's name is entirely irrelevant to opinion and should not be taken to imply the validity of any comment from anyone. As far as I am concerned that also goes for the coloured bars, the badges, post counts, 'points' and levels - which I still do not understand, or have a particular interest in - although others might!

Just read your post again Smoggy and want to reassure you that I did not disregard your opinion. I am sorry you felt this.

My primary interest in fora is to learn: to learn of other's opinions and occasionally present my own where I feel I can make a valid contribution. I do not mind being disagreed with in the least, since it helps get to the root of things - although of course I will try to explain the reasoning behind my point of view, just as I would hope that any reasonable debater would try to establish the ground for his/her particular point of view.

 

[Big Ern]

tk poisition is King at Monaco. If you're concentrated on keeping someone behind you then they will stay behind you. No one knows if Vettels tyres would've finished the race or not, but there's no guarantee that anyone would've passed anyone else regardless of their tyres. I can't stand Monaco simply for this reason, guard your inside and no one will get passed.

Smoggy, I think Button has become very aggressive compared to his previous seasons, but at Monaco sitting behid someone and waiting for them to make a mistake is better than attempting a rash overtake and crashing. In fact it's about the only way to overtake there, I personally doubt Hamilton would've taken Monaco in the tunnel if Massa's car hadn't been concertina'd between Hamilton and Webber at the hairpin and been damaged front and back

 

[Basil_Brushzenberger]

Hello Basil,

Read it again, did I say Button doesn't show much ambition, no. If I wanted to say Button lacks ambtion and infer that he is not a proper F1 driver, it would have read like this; "IMHO, Button is not an F1 driver and lacks ambition".

I did write "It doesn't show much ambition IMHO, surely an F1 driver wants to win every race and therefore wants to race everyone, not just wait for others to fall off the track and inherit the win", no mention of JB as the F1 driver, no mention of SB and FA as the 'others' and no mention of Monaco as the 'track'. You are filling in blanks that simply aren't there. My inference was that 'an F1 driver' covers anyone and everyone on the grid, so I guess you could say I criticised them all or criticised no one, my mistake, I will be much clearer with my posts in future to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding.

I do feel that I must nail my colours to the mast however as my feelings about LH's behaviour has been mentioned twice by yourself and twisted into 'LH is a hero and everyone else is wrong', so here goes. I'm a fan of F1, I watch it for the technology, the skill of (all) the drivers, the tactics of (all) the teams (good and bad), but above all the excitement of it all.

oooh deja vu.....

I must have been reading between the lines a bit too much, Smoggy. My apologies.