dani ayala
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To say that Ward and Barnett are "content to sit of the bench" is a gross insult to both of them. It implies they are happy to pick up their pay check while not caring a damn whether they play or not. I don't believe there is any evidence that that is their attitude.
precisely
both will feel they have a clean slate with hughton and barnett and ward have both been impressive during the pre-season. turner and bennett on paper have looked like the strongest pairing since the former's arrival a couple of weeks back but the others have looked assured in their games and martin is there too
I say bring back big dunc and malky, then there won't be any squables
They'd be too expensive for this lot they'd want Doherty instead.
YellowLittle
Well-Known Member
Seriously Superman who do you think is better Ward or Ayala. That's what my argument is. I think Ayala would be challenging more for a first team place this season. More comfortable on the ball and I think more mobile.
I don't particularly rate Ward, I don't think he is terrible but I think he is not good enough for our squad. I like him for helping us in the Championship, don't get me wrong. No room for sentiment though. I think he can be rash in decisions and too slow.
The thing that wound me up was the "dear oh dear". Maybe it wasn't meant the way I interpreted it. Just explaining why this thread probably escalated into an argument. It just seems you can't criticize a Norwich player without people jumping down your throat and in this case with an arrogant and condascending tone.
This debate will be settled on the pitch this season no doubt, but I do think letting Ayala out is a strange one especially when it's not a strong position. I think Hughton might have another centre half up his mind.
YellowLittle
Well-Known Member
I'd just like to add my views to this debate.
Ward isn't a bad player and he has been castigated somewhat for his mistakes which led to the opposition almost being 'gifted' a goal (something which most defenders did at least once last season and which we need to tighten up on - getting rid of the ball instead of trying to play their way out of defence would help!!!). He certainly wouldn't be my choice for a starting 11, but is good enough for the bench or when someone else gets injured. I think to send Ayala out on loan is a good idea, as he's not likely to start too many games if he stays at CR and he did concede one or two penalties last season and he needs to be playing regularly to improve his game.
That's not quite the question. The question is: Given that our first choice CH pairing will be Bennett and Turner, what is to be done with the other 3 CBs in the squad. The answer with Ayala is: he needs to be playing regularly; there is absolutely no point in having him sitting on the bench. If he was still at Liverpool, or was at Arsenal or Man Utd, or wherever, he would be sent out on loan to get playing time and experience in the Championship. That is what HE needs right now if he is to develop his undoubted talent. That being so, the question about the other 2 CBs is answered. They stay and are our two in reserve. If CH is not happy with that situation, he will bring in another CB, and then the question will arise again in the case of Ward and Barnett.
YellowLittle
Well-Known Member
That's not quite the question. The question is: Given that our first choice CH pairing will be Bennett and Turner, what is to be done with the other 3 CBs in the squad. The answer with Ayala is: he needs to be playing regularly; there is absolutely no point in having him sitting on the bench. If he was still at Liverpool, or was at Arsenal or Man Utd, or wherever, he would be sent out on loan to get playing time and experience in the Championship. That is what HE needs right now if he is to develop his undoubted talent. That being so, the question about the other 2 CBs is answered. They stay and are our two in reserve. If CH is not happy with that situation, he will bring in another CB, and then the question will arise again in the case of Ward and Barnett.
Sorry Rob, it is the question.
You obviously have not read my posts. As I have been saying he will challenging for a first team place more so than Ward imo. I even said it on the same line as my post. So stop being pedantic and going through posts with a fine tooth comb and actually read and assess it as a whole.
Also I may add I don't think Ayala is far off Bennett and could well easily challenge his place.
I'd rather have Russell Martin as a back up centre back then Barnett & Ward, at least he doesn't panic on the ball, can pass and he has a bit of pace.
I might as well voice my opinion on this.......
I dont really rate Ward and in ideal cricumstances I would like to offload both him and Barnett. However, as mentioned above they are backup and as so they do not need to be as good at the moment. I would like to think the squad is stronger than last season and if we stay in the premier league again I am sure we will continue to slowly strengthen.
I think its really important to remember the league that we are playing in and the quality of players our defenders are playing against. I dont feel like anyone of our players disgraced us last season including the defenders whether that be the starters or those called on when short. We arent an established premier league club that can go and buy better than what we have currently and I would much prefer Ward and Barnett who know the club and appear happy with us. Quite simply if we had enough money to drastically improve the defence CB would not be my main concern as I feel Turner is an astute signing and we have hope for the future in Ayala and Bennett.
Once again we have improved the midfield this season and with the likes of Howson, Pilks, Bennett, Snodgrass, Butterfield and Surman there is a whole lot of quality players in that area who will continue to improve. If we stay up again this season I think we may then see a new striker and a new CB both for a bit more money than we have been spending. I think our transfer policy has been spot on over the last 2 years and we havent seen all the benefits from that yet.
I dont really rate Ward and in ideal cricumstances I would like to offload both him and Barnett. However, as mentioned above they are backup and as so they do not need to be as good at the moment. I would like to think the squad is stronger than last season and if we stay in the premier league again I am sure we will continue to slowly strengthen.
I think its really important to remember the league that we are playing in and the quality of players our defenders are playing against. I dont feel like anyone of our players disgraced us last season including the defenders whether that be the starters or those called on when short. We arent an established premier league club that can go and buy better than what we have currently and I would much prefer Ward and Barnett who know the club and appear happy with us. Quite simply if we had enough money to drastically improve the defence CB would not be my main concern as I feel Turner is an astute signing and we have hope for the future in Ayala and Bennett.
Once again we have improved the midfield this season and with the likes of Howson, Pilks, Bennett, Snodgrass, Butterfield and Surman there is a whole lot of quality players in that area who will continue to improve. If we stay up again this season I think we may then see a new striker and a new CB both for a bit more money than we have been spending. I think our transfer policy has been spot on over the last 2 years and we havent seen all the benefits from that yet.
Sorry Rob, it is the question.
You obviously have not read my posts. As I have been saying he will challenging for a first team place more so than Ward imo. I even said it on the same line as my post. So stop being pedantic and going through posts with a fine tooth comb and actually read and assess it as a whole.
Also I may add I don't think Ayala is far off Bennett and could well easily challenge his place.
Yellow - I think the case being made, and one which I support is that Hughton will chop and change his line-up a lot less than Lambert did (barring injuries) and the centre of defence is an rea where we need a settled pairing - too often last year we had well what was it De Laet/Barnett, Barnett/Martin, Ayala/Whitbread, Whitbread/Martin, Whitbread/Ward, Uncle Tom Cobleigh/Daniel Witton .... you get my drift. A lot of that was due to both Zak and Ayala being injury prone but also part that Lambert liked to rotate the squad and I don't think Hughton will do this quite so often.
That means that the first choice (we presume) pairing will be Turner and Bennett - this means that Ward, Barny and Ayala will be on the bench as back-up and of the three Ayala has the greatest long-term potential but also has the most to prove (staying fit for the season would be the first test) so it makes perfect commercial sense to loan out a long-term asset to get game time and improve his fitness and experience from which we will benefit in seasons to come.
Ayala is the most talented of the Ayala/Ward/Barnett triumvirate - there's no disputing that but we need to see that talent exploited and he won't do that clicking his heels on the bench every week.
YellowLittle
Well-Known Member
Mark. Good post. Nice to see a constructive reply.
As much as i agree about no one disgracing us, we still need to look at our weak points from last season. It was the defence in my opinion. And after losing whitbread and naughton. I actually think its worse. Turner is better than whitbread on doubt. Not convinced with whittaker though to fill naughtons shoes.
If we lose ayala as well, who probably is most comfortable centre back in team that would make our defence even weaker. That's why i am concerned.
As much as i agree about no one disgracing us, we still need to look at our weak points from last season. It was the defence in my opinion. And after losing whitbread and naughton. I actually think its worse. Turner is better than whitbread on doubt. Not convinced with whittaker though to fill naughtons shoes.
If we lose ayala as well, who probably is most comfortable centre back in team that would make our defence even weaker. That's why i am concerned.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the arguement against Supers is that Ayala should not go out on loan, Ward should be dumped and a new central defender bought - preferably Curtis Davies. Obviously neither Turner or Davies will be bought to warm the bench so that will leave Bennett and Ayala as bench warmers for the next 2 or 3 years apart from times of injury or suspension - great development of young talent!!! Surely we have bought Turner to help develop Bennett and Ayala. I don't disagree that Ayala should be kept here but with Turner, Ayala and Bennett here why do we need to spend money replacing Ward? I would be more concerned if we let Ayala go and bought Davies as this would marginalise Ayala and Bennett. Tierney is the only recognised left back on the books but if he is out long term with injury who steps in? Lappin would be OK for the odd game but an extended run? - No way!! Surely we need other Players in other positions before buying any more central defenders. As for the suggestion that some supporters don't need a player to pick on - I find that laughable. I have been going to Carrow Road since 1950 and it has always been like that - some supporters just can't cope unless they have a player to pick on. At the moment it is Ward but before that it was Ruddy and Russell Martin. It has always been like that at every Club and always will be. In my opinion - keep Ayala ( to bring him on ) and Ward ( to be 4th choice ).
YellowLittle
Well-Known Member
Oldcan, that's precisely my concern. Injuries. Loss of form. Fatigue How many teams go all season with the same centre back partnership?
I think ayala is capable to try and get starting 11 spot anyway and we should give him that chance.
If another centre back comes in, it won't be too bad. So i hope there is another one up Hughtons sleeve
I think ayala is capable to try and get starting 11 spot anyway and we should give him that chance.
If another centre back comes in, it won't be too bad. So i hope there is another one up Hughtons sleeve
I presume all this hatred for Ward stems mainly from our game against Liverpool and Man City last season during which he was made to look very silly by Aguero/Suarez. I doubt Ayala would have done much better. At the end of the day, no defenders would be comfortable against them.
Ayala is young and as Hughton said, he should be playing first team football every week. Ayala is equally capable of a clumsy challenge as Ward/Barnett and I have seen give away a few penalties in the past. I'm especially surprised by all the Barnett bashing because I certainly was happy when he became a permanent signing after his loan from WBA, and a few shaky moments haven't changed that!
Ayala is young and as Hughton said, he should be playing first team football every week. Ayala is equally capable of a clumsy challenge as Ward/Barnett and I have seen give away a few penalties in the past. I'm especially surprised by all the Barnett bashing because I certainly was happy when he became a permanent signing after his loan from WBA, and a few shaky moments haven't changed that!
Spot on. I can't see the sense in splashing out for a new CB when Ayala is decent and in my opinion has every chance of developing into a very good player. I would much rather see us invest in FB's.