Cup glory or league stability

[Fatter than Fleck]

I have now supported Norwich for 40 years, a relationship that is twice as long as my marriage. Looking back at the highs and lows of that time the stand out memories are the three league cup finals - two of which I managed to get to Wembley to see, and the FA cup run of 1989. I was overseas for the 1992 cup run and the 1992/93 season and had to make do with BBC World Service commentaries so have less attachment to those successes.

This is not just an old fart reminicing. I read with interest the Hughton thread and I wonder how many of the posters castigating Hughton for the boring fare he is currently churning out believe that league stability is more important than a cup run. For me I want to see Norwich win trophies. I accept that we well never win the EPL in my life time. But I really want us to make a serious effort for either the league or FA Cup every season. Ideally the excitement that a good cup run brings would be coupled with EPL survival but I could live with relegation. Looking back to 85 I remember the final (and also the semi final against the binners) vividly whilst the subsequent relegation is but a distant memory.

I know that the pragmatists will say that the financial future of the club is paramount and we must prioritise the EPL above all else. But where is joy in supporting a club when the only objective is survival at all costs with the occasional victory against a "big" club the sole measure of success? If that is all you aspire to then you will end up with the turgid football we are currently watching. Those of you of my generation will undoubtably remember Alan Durban's quote from 1980 "if you want entertainment go and see a bunch of clowns" when defending a dire performance by Stoke.

 

[ThaiCanary]

Old ground but worth covering again imo.

Personally I would love to get the buzz from being in a cup semi or final again but I do understand why the club see the priority being the PL for the revenue it generates. There is no easy answer until we have a team capable of both i'm afraid.

 

[Fatter than Fleck]

My point is that if at the start of the season success is measured by not being relegated then the invariable consequence will eventually be fear of failure that stifles the team, not losing takes priority over winning. Lambert to a degree was protected from this mindset because our first year back in the EPL was at a time when the board accepted that we might need to yo yo at least once in their 7 year plan. After we beat the odds and stayed up the mindset changed and survival became the priority.

 

[Beefforhire-NCFC]

I don't think you'll find anyone that doesn't want to go on a cup run. Priorities have to wax and wane and to an extent it depends on the luck of the draw and the fixtures around I to how you prioritise what your doing.

There's no sense getting irate about it in my mind. It will happen when it happens.

 

[DHCanary]

I don't think the limit of our boards ambition is to become another Wigan, narrowly avoiding relegation for year on year. I'm young, so I've never seen Norwich win anything more than the championship, so I'm kind of used to a lack of success. For me, I'd be happy to take 5 years of steady progression in the league, until we're a solid, mid-table outfit that are unlikely to be seriously threatened by relegation, and have the squad depth to cope with injuries. A team that score goals, play decent football, and are capable of upsetting the big boys.

Once we've achieved that, we'll have reached our realistic limit in terms of league positions, and then I'd like to see us really go for the domestic cups. If in 10-15 years time we're a solid PL outfit and haven't reached at least a domestic semi-final, I'll be disappointed.

 

[ilovedelia]

What is the point of having £60 million in the bank and just surviving. Surely with all that money you would be looking to improve, get better, achieve more, not just carry on surviving!
To answer your question, I would hope for both;

League stability in the TOP half, with a place in Europe, why not we've done it before.
A good cup run (in either competition) culminating in a final at wembly!
Reach for the stars, you may just catch a couple!

 

[Beefforhire-NCFC]

What is the point of having £60 million in the bank and just surviving. Surely with all that money you would be looking to improve, get better, achieve more, not just carry on surviving!
To answer your question, I would hope for both;

League stability in the TOP half, with a place in Europe, why not we've done it before.
A good cup run (in either competition) culminating in a final at wembly!
Reach for the stars, you may just catch a couple!

All that in our second season? Surely playin off the debt, then assembling a squad and kicking on is a priority.

 

[Astro Canary]

League stability in the TOP half, with a place in Europe, why not we've done it before.
A good cup run (in either competition) culminating in a final at wembly!
Reach for the stars, you may just catch a couple!

A great quote similar to yours is:

"Shoot for the moon and if you miss, you'll land among the stars" - (Les Brown I believe)...

 

[Norfolkbhoy]

Personally the most gutted I've been for the past couple of seasons was when Villa knocked us out of the League Cup this year. Given what was left in the competition we probably will not have a better chance of getting to a final and winning it in another decade.

EPL survival is paramount to the future of the club. The gap between the top table and the rest has never been wider and is going to increase massively next season and we have to be on the right side of the divide to set us up for the next 5-10 years and give us the financial muscle and stability to develop the stadium and improve the squad.

If we can sit here in five years with RvW leading our attack into Europe and playing in front of 30k+ at FCR i think that a season or two of survival at all costs and no cup run is a price we should be happy to pay.However as ILD points out there is no joy in doing a Wigan and surviving by the skin of our teeth year in, year out. If we are going to have the £60m then we need to use it wisely to fund improvements all over the club - the academy is now in place and we will be in a position to improve the squad and develop the ground to turn us from one of the smallest clubs in the PL to an average size club.

 

[oldcanariesfan]

Finance has a lot to do with it - we were nearly ruined a few of seasons ago and could have ended up like Portsmouth or Coventry - teams who we played a couple of seasons ago too. If staying in the EPL means financial security then that must be a priority but I'd like to think we could do better than just look forward to mid-table solidarity and an early exit from the League and FA Cups. Mid-table solidarity and a real push for Domestic Cup glory must be our mid-term plan I hope.

Let's look at our opponents on Saturday. Financially stable playing good football, have mid-table safety and have just won a Domestic Cup - they too lost their Manager (who was also a bright, young thing) in the close season but have kicked on with arguably lower spending power than we have demonstated and are now a team to benchmark ourselves against. The only real difference as I see it was they were not a gnats whisker away from financial ruin and thus began from a stronger starting point.

 

[redruthyella]

There was a certain gamble in hiring Lambert as his record wasn't brilliant up until he joined us. He came to the club and probably saw us as a place to experiment with slightly better players than he was used to working with and the chance of buying some as well. I sense he was informed and probably worked out for himself that NCFC and its supporters were used to better fayre than had been served up in recent years. I think he knew that can't progress playing sterile football and had to gamble somewhat. Take risks. Get the supporters behind you with some rollicking performances and the bandwagon will roll for a club that was more than capable of returning to their good years.
And it worked. And then he chose to move on. Good luck to him. But he left the club in good health and to be honest many supporters started getting ideas about achievements for NCFC that will never happen. We have to accept our position in the food chain. We will go down at some time. If that is 1, 2 or 3 years doesn't make any difference. Just do your best in that division, take what you can get, don't go silly with your money and if you get a chance at a cup run, put everything into it. We have a decent history in the League Cup and I don't know why we have done so badly recently. The capitulation to Villa was as shocking as much as it was a poor performance. I'm sure most of us were planning a Wembley visit moments before that game kicked off.
Cup competitions are like being on holiday. They are the times when the blinkers are off and something other than the straight and normal takes over. And this is where clubs like us should be excelling. Obviously, the FA Cup has been dominated by Chelsea recently but even a semi final is a Wembley trip so their is definitely something to aim for that is well within our capabilities.
I know it is true but I am fed up with hearing all about "the money" and "you have to be in the Prem to survive financially". The Prem every other year would still bring financial security. Lets not forget the two other major tournaments that we enter each season.

 

[Norfolkbhoy]

Good analysis of the Lambert era Redruth.

I agree that we should do better in the cups and take them seriously but I wouldn't want to gamble on being a yo-yo club as if we went down and didn't come back up it could be a long haul getting back into the PL.

I don't think that the two things are mutally exclusive - generally the better teams in the country get into the latter stages of the cup. Currently our "rank" is somewhere in the teens which translates to last 16/last 32 of the cup competitions which is not too exciting. If we are able to improve to being a top ten side which given our catchment and financial security is not unreasonable then I think we will naturally progress further in the cups. The longer we are in the PL, the more we will have to invest in the squad and so the deeper our squad will be and we will be able to compete on more than one front. The Chris Hughton thread is littered with people (myself included) bemoaning our lack of squad depth and CH's unwillingness to utilise certain squad members or use the subs bench. If we are wealthy enough to buy some quality (and hopefully also develop some in-house through the academy) then we should be enjoying higher league placement AND good cup runs.

 

[goldeneadie]

What is the point of having £60 million in the bank and just surviving. Surely with all that money you would be looking to improve, get better, achieve more, not just carry on surviving!
To answer your question, I would hope for both;

League stability in the TOP half, with a place in Europe, why not we've done it before.
A good cup run (in either competition) culminating in a final at wembly!
Reach for the stars, you may just catch a couple!

but there will be at least a dozen other teams in the PL with the same aims, and the same money available. this summers transfer market could be the most important ever for a lot of teams. find a Michu and improve, fail to find such a player and face a struggle. we have jumped the gun with the capture of RvW which was a great bit of business. hopefully there will be more good news in July and August.

 

[redruthyella]

I am being slightly more cautious about the arrival of RVW. His record is good. But maybe the style of football played by his employers has helped him. If he has to play on his own up front in the current style then I can't expect him to be too much use than what we already have. He told the media CH was bringing in an attacking midfielder and two wide men which CH has just denied. Unless we bring in new blood it won't matter if we had bought Messi.

 

[Canary Rob]

I am being slightly more cautious about the arrival of RVW. His record is good. But maybe the style of football played by his employers has helped him. If he has to play on his own up front in the current style then I can't expect him to be too much use than what we already have. He told the media CH was bringing in an attacking midfielder and two wide men which CH has just denied. Unless we bring in new blood it won't matter if we had bought Messi.

I didn't take Hughton's response to that as a denial as such - I got the impression he just denied that those were our definite targets. I.e., he will wait and see what comes available, to protect our position in the transfer window.

 

[ncfcpaul]

Money completely ruined the game for a lot of clubs,will take an fa cup win and relegation everytime,best day for me in 40 years of support,wembley 1985 we actually ****ing won something didnt give a **** we got relegated(after all we are norwich city and if we can attract 25000 in leauge 1 there all ways wiil be) i measure footie in trophies not how much money a club has
,bring on the trophies i say

 

[carrabuh]

It has long been the case with club Chairmen that the money associated with winning is bigger than the prize itself.

I would gladly swap a League cup win for Premier League football, that cup stays on your record forever.

You ask any Ipswich fan (although I recommend you don't) and I'm certain they wouldn't swap any trophy for any amount of money to go in the clubs coffers, those trophies are priceless.

I'm sure the older fans like me won't swap the European run or the Milk Cup win for any amount of money either.

The history of a club is just so important.

 

[NCFC Dorset Branch]

Not sure I buy this whole 'if we don't stay in the Prem this year we'll never get back again, the gap is widening every year etc'.

The fact is that each season 15% of the clubs in the top flight get relegated, and get replaced with 13% of the second tier. That's quite a healthy turnover, and by my reckoning 19 of the 24 Championship clubs have been in the top flight in the recent past.

Personally, I would far prefer an FA Cup win and relegation over a 17th place finish with about 35 0-0 draws.

It's probably an age thing partly - those of us who are a little older perhaps realise that football, like everything in life, is cyclical. We will have periods in the top flight, we will get relegated every now and then. We just will.

 

[canary-dave]

Not sure I buy this whole 'if we don't stay in the Prem this year we'll never get back again, the gap is widening every year etc'.

The fact is that each season 15% of the clubs in the top flight get relegated, and get replaced with 13% of the second tier. That's quite a healthy turnover, and by my reckoning 19 of the 24 Championship clubs have been in the top flight in the recent past.

Personally, I would far prefer an FA Cup win and relegation over a 17th place finish with about 35 0-0 draws.

It's probably an age thing partly - those of us who are a little older perhaps realise that football, like everything in life, is cyclical. We will have periods in the top flight, we will get relegated every now and then. We just will.

Can you remind me when Arsenal were last relegated!

 

[NCFC Dorset Branch]

Can you remind me when Arsenal were last relegated!

I didn't say EVERY club will be relegated and/or promoted, but the vast majority are. Pretty much Arsenal and Everton are the only exceptions, and Everton only avoided it because of the match fixing that, although they weren't party to, meant they won a game that they should have lost which would have seen them go down.