Off Topic Coronavirus

[Solid Air]

exactly, all purely logical and legal giving the EU no place to go.

I don't know why we need to see flag waving and patriotic nonsense to justify a legal contract. I fail to see why the great unwashed need to be pumped up with this sort of stuff and untruths when the turth is more simple and more iron clad.

AZ need to justify to the EU why the plant in the EU isn't even registered to supply the EU that is about it IMO.

I understand the "our Vaccine" crap to an extent as they have managed to actually deliver something for once but like you i could really do without this faux patriotism and those ****ers with a Union Jack "flying" in their living room should be forcibly given an enema .
The AZ plant in Holland isn't registered as the European regulator haven't done their site visit yet apparently .

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I understand the "our Vaccine" crap to an extent as they have managed to actually deliver something for once but like you i could really do without this faux patriotism and those ****ers with a Union Jack "flying" in their living room should be forcibly given an enema .
The AZ plant in Holland isn't registered as the European regulator haven't done their site visit yet apparently .

Yup. You'd think they'd go in full body suit with respirator if they had to in order to get it done.

I believe it is now "done"

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The cases of clots with az are now "building"

30 finally turn up in the UK and could be tip of iceberg.

There was 30 in germany with far far less subjects as germany were only giving it to over 60s.

Canada, USA and several countries in eu have all had to take a look but the patriot drum is being banged ever louder here.

The safe thing to do here is just ask patients if they've history of clots or other related issues before booking their jab bit we wont cos the uk/swedish vaccine is our rule Britannia moment.

 

[Tobes]

The cases of clots with az are now "building"

30 finally turn up in the UK and could be tip of iceberg.

There was 30 in germany with far far less subjects as germany were only giving it to over 60s.

Canada, USA and several countries in eu have all had to take a look but the patriot drum is being banged ever louder here.

The safe thing to do here is just ask patients if they've history of clots or other related issues before booking their jab bit we wont cos the uk/swedish vaccine is our rule Britannia moment.

30 out of 18m, and the tip of the iceberg suggestion is baseless.

The cases in Germany were mainly middle aged women.

There’s insufficient evidence to link the vaccine to the clots as yet, as there’s a natural occurrence of the issue anyway, and / or other potential causes.

Every medicine ever made has side effects that are severe amongst a minuscule percentage.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

30 out of 18m, and the tip of the iceberg suggestion is baseless.

The cases in Germany were mainly middle aged women.

There’s insufficient evidence to link the vaccine to the clots as yet, as there’s a natural occurrence of the issue anyway, and / or other potential causes.

Every medicine ever made has side effects that are severe amongst a minuscule percentage.

It was 8 and now 30.

The authorities have to pay close attention.

Of course there are always side effects but when we ask are you allergic to penicillin before giving it it is for good reason. People need to drop the flag waving nigel attitude and see that in effect all of these vaccines have been emergency use released and every injection is an I don't really know situation.

Most are fine but when adverse effects include deaths they have to be investigated thoroughly.

It is hardly a risk to just the a precaution and enquire if someone has history of strokes or clots in the family or did they ever need thinners etc. Then send those saying yes for a Pfizer.

 

[Diego]

It was 8 and now 30.

The authorities have to pay close attention.

Of course there are always side effects but when we ask are you allergic to penicillin before giving it it is for good reason. People need to drop the flag waving nigel attitude and see that in effect all of these vaccines have been emergency use released and every injection is an I don't really know situation.

Most are fine but when adverse effects include deaths they have to be investigated thoroughly.

It is hardly a risk to just the a precaution and enquire if someone has history of strokes or clots in the family or did they ever need thinners etc. Then send those saying yes for a Pfizer.

Why?
Do we know Pfizer has no side effects yet?

 

[Tobes]

It was 8 and now 30.

The authorities have to pay close attention.

Of course there are always side effects but when we ask are you allergic to penicillin before giving it it is for good reason. People need to drop the flag waving nigel attitude and see that in effect all of these vaccines have been emergency use released and every injection is an I don't really know situation.

Most are fine but when adverse effects include deaths they have to be investigated thoroughly.

It is hardly a risk to just the a precaution and enquire if someone has history of strokes or clots in the family or did they ever need thinners etc. Then send those saying yes for a Pfizer.

Yeah it needs thorough investigation mate, and if there’s a link between the already susceptible and / or other drugs they may be taking I’m sure that’ll come out.

I listened to a Dr discussing it on the radio last week, and in a sample size of 18m the natural occurrence number was something around 20 iirc. I think out of the 30 only 7 have had a fatal reaction btw.

For context, If 18m were suddenly prescribed paracetamol you’d have a minuscule number experiencing acute abnormal reactions that include liver failure.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Yeah it needs thorough investigation mate, and if there’s a link between the already susceptible and / or other drugs they may be taking I’m sure that’ll come out.

I listened to a Dr discussing it on the radio last week, and in a sample size of 18m the natural occurrence number was something around 20 iirc. I think out of the 30 only 7 have had a fatal reaction btw.

For context, If 18m were suddenly prescribed paracetamol you’d have a minuscule number experiencing acute abnormal reactions that include liver failure.

7 deaths in a short time with how many other issues not getting diagnosed is the issue.

We can all go on burying the heads and saying get everyone done asap but applying some common sense would go a long way to getting this done properly without undue risk.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Why?
Do we know Pfizer has no side effects yet?

We know it does.

The point is if we know now some people get clots why not use common sense and apply the question simply and effectively during booking and direct those with any risk of clots to the alternatives.

 

[RogerisontheHunt]

AZ could well be moved to the side anyway. With the problems over its production and supply and the fact that Novovax is supposed to be produced mainly in the UK. Possible that Novovax might become the primary vaccine.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

AZ could well be moved to the side anyway. With the problems over its production and supply and the fact that Novovax is supposed to be produced mainly in the UK. Possible that Novovax might become the primary vaccine.

We need to be even more careful with that one. It's a novel technology thats unproven. At least az is a well proven route even if it is causing a few to have similar reactions as Corona and getting clots.

The novo is a nano particle with proteins attached. It is totally unknown long term effects.

If we look at cjd for example we had no idea what prions were a short time ago. Now we look for these as well.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I had the Pfizer vaccine so I only know what questions I was asked beforehand and not what the general approach to pre vaccination is. I was asked if I was taking blood thinners and if I had ever had a bad reaction to a vaccine. As I understand it, if you are taking blood thinners, there is a greater risk of bleeding so you need to show that your INR test (how fast it takes your blood to clot) is up to date. If you've had a bad reaction to any previous vaccines you won't be offered any Covid vaccine as the risk is considered too great.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Now the uk are going to restrict the az vaccine.
None for under 30s. (Which makes it seem like the stronger the immune system the more clotting)

Also boris has dropped the line about a 3rd dose for all in September. Now I wonder where you all heard that one first????

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Now the uk are going to restrict the az vaccine.
None for under 30s. (Which makes it seem like the stronger the immune system the more clotting)

Also boris has dropped the line about a 3rd dose for all in September. Now I wonder where you all heard that one first????

Mito you haven't taken on a new job as medical advisor for the BBC have you... scaremongering

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Mito you haven't taken on a new job as medical advisor for the BBC have you... scaremongering

hey, it only took them 2 months to cotton on.

I did say people would be back for more jabs in september if they got AZ.

It seems to work by suppressing the immune system a bit and then the response if ott just like the virus itself. the others seem to not have this big a response.

People need to read the helsinki declaration and be careful of politicians beating drums about emergency use drugs being pumped in to millions.


when the regulators say the benefit outweighs the risk they are merely following regulations. they are not stating how dangerous anything is just that the clear benefits do outweigh the risk.

However the ethical implication is you have to question a person's history of clotting before you stick that needle in.

I haven't even started on hip and knee implants btw. Don't want to scare old RHC.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Mito, if you are offered the AstraZeneca will you take it or will you look for a centre offering one of the others and book in there? Presupposing, of course that you intend to get vaccinated.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Mito, if you are offered the AstraZeneca will you take it or will you look for a centre offering one of the others and book in there? Presupposing, of course that you intend to get vaccinated.

I will get vaccinated.

I wont be offered a choice unless I get lucky.

My wife cant take az she broke her foot years ago and a clot travelled but stayed in leg.

I'd like the pfizer personally and would do the decent thing and pay for it myself if that option existed. As it doesn't I am hoping to nod at the gp and see if the guy has any option.

My mother got pfizer.

My mate had to get az due to the kidney transplant as he was sent by hospital specifically and they explained he couldnt have the others as they raise the immune system and are dangerous for transplantees.

I have not gone looking as theres a queue for people who need it more but we are now at the point that age groups are getting close.and I've heard lots of stories of people.going different routes to get booked in.

I genuinely don't want az as theres an inevitability about the data and preclinical that says its effectiveness is not as good as other vaccines.

Then add in clots and the south Africa variant.

Call me selfish but I'm ready to pay the extra for pfizer.

The only thing I would say is I'd rather go without than get the janssen/ johnson and johnson one.

That company is a complete and utter bunch of profiteering scumbags. cant trust them.

Just cannot.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I will get vaccinated.

I wont be offered a choice unless I get lucky.

My wife cant take az she broke her foot years ago and a clot travelled but stayed in leg.

I'd like the pfizer personally and would do the decent thing and pay for it myself if that option existed. As it doesn't I am hoping to nod at the gp and see if the guy has any option.

My mother got pfizer.

My mate had to get az due to the kidney transplant as he was sent by hospital specifically and they explained he couldnt have the others as they raise the immune system and are dangerous for transplantees.

I have not gone looking as theres a queue for people who need it more but we are now at the point that age groups are getting close.and I've heard lots of stories of people.going different routes to get booked in.

I genuinely don't want az as theres an inevitability about the data and preclinical that says its effectiveness is not as good as other vaccines.

Then add in clots and the south Africa variant.

Call me selfish but I'm ready to pay the extra for pfizer.

The only thing I would say is I'd rather go without than get the janssen/ johnson and johnson one.

That company is a complete and utter bunch of profiteering scumbags. cant trust them.

Just cannot.

You won't be offered a choice but you can go online and see your options after you put your postcode in. You can then check out which ones are offering Pfizer.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

the media commentary on AZ and also many of the government statements border on unethical at this point.

the closest boris got to proper ethics is saying trust the regulator and the regulator followed what the declaration of helsinki says. They are slowly adding detail in terms of the adverse effects and informed consent.

We need to be clear here. this was approved on emergency use legislation, we already broke the normal processes in an unprecedented way for ALL vaccines now approved really. we are giving what 30? million people minimum AZ without really any history or follow ups on the first cohorts.

when hancock says he will take anything given to him he actually means ignore all the stuff and take your AZ when given it. We've seen various talking heads who have literally zer clue what the ehtical requirements are saying whats the fuss just shut up and inject.

Theres a massive difference between a regulator saying the "benefits outweigh the risk" in a careful way as they are mindful of their responsibilities and a political hack who has an agenda or worse a media presenter or talking head who wants to stoke up form anger and messages and hits.

two principles come to mind

The primary purpose of medical research involving human subjects is to understand the causes, development and effects of diseases and improve preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic interventions (methods, procedures and treatments). Even the best proven interventions must be evaluated continually through research for their safety, effectiveness, efficiency, accessibility and quality.

All medical research involving human subjects must be preceded by careful assessment of predictable risks and burdens to the individuals and groups involved in the research in comparison with foreseeable benefits to them and to other individuals or groups affected by the condition under investigation.

Measures to minimise the risks must be implemented. The risks must be continuously monitored, assessed and documented by the researcher.



It is the responsibility of AZ and the regulators to update the warnings and contraindications to protect people. It is only clear so far that the evidence level at an early point and terms like "rare" are being used to drive people to take the vaccine. It is clear that as of now the regulator is right that the benefits outweigh the risk but as an individual everyone has the right now to weigh for themselves as its clear this could kill you if you are susceptible.

the same situation exists for the other vaccines
for example Pfizer had some adverse effects right off but nothing is mentioned now.
novovax which for me is one people ought to be extremely careful of as a totally different delivery carrier.
janseen and J&J have a very poor reputation when it comes to ethics.

My point is really this; it is clear that benefits outweigh risks but the communication and agendas of certain people leaves much to be desired. Further the EU has shown its true weakness not by its actions on blocking exports etc but by having different countries taking different actions. the EMA has failed to be ahead of the game here. Their online adverse reporting structures SUCK ARSE (we have one as we were attached to them)

Right now the most important thing is people can have informed consent to what they are being offered rather than the attitude that you'll take what you are given and that's that if you know what's good for you.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

It seems to me that the AstraZeneca was always going to have different effects on people because of the way it is produced, using an actual virus, when none of the others have gone down that route. It could well be that it also offers better protection to some people, we don't have a full picture because the vaccines are all so new. It doesn't help the people who have already had it to maybe scare them now. The media really needs to think before it puts some of these stories out, too much to expect I know.

Moderna is being rolled out in Wales with the rest of the UK to follow in the coming weeks- 17m ordered.

I wouldn't have taken the J&J one on ethical grounds because of how it is produced. From what I understand they use stem cells from aborted babies. I don't know whether people care about things like this when they are being vaccinated against a killer virus. It's something for each individual to weigh up.

As the number of vaccinated people increases, those who don't want any vaccines at all can feel safer and safer. It could well be that those having the jab are taking all the risks on behalf of those who can't have or don't want the vaccine as their risk of getting the virus diminishes.