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Off Topic Coronavirus
- Thread starter Sooperhoop
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Weird because it’s was just confirmed on Sky news that we put our order in 3 months before the EU.
What I think you are missing is the national governments in these countries are seeing previously healthy people, many under 50 and mostly women, getting critically ill with some dying, with the very unusual combinations of blood clots, low blood platelet levels and brain haemoraging after taking the AZ vaccination, same sickness profile in various different European countries. More reported from Spain, including a death today. Clearly this needs checking out, which is what the different countries are trying to do together. Statistically not many, but quite possibly a very serious side effect. Maybe the vast majority of people given the AZ vaccine in the UK are over 60, and any problem in younger people is very small statistically in the high elderly proportion of vaccinations given. I don't know, but I hope they can identify if or not there is a link to the AZ vaccine quick, but properly.
More people ( mostly women ) dying from blood clots due to taking the pill than dying from the AZ vaccine according to the James O'Brien radio show on LBC this morning Oslo. He also points out that many more people are dying from not taking it.
Who confirmed it, Kay Burley or another journo of her stature at Sky News? I know, she's on gardening leave but Ellers, please go google it. Many, many websites confirming that the two contracts were signed one day apart, 27/8/20 (EU) and 28/8/20 (UK).
Here is an article confirming the EU contract and the fact that it is the First contract AZ signed.
https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news-ec-astrazeneca-vaccine-contract/
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It is not just blood clots but also low blood platelet levels and brain haemoraging. Very unusual. As with the pill, other alternatives vaccines are available. The responsible Norwegian Minister claims they would actually complete vaccinating Norway a bit earlier this summer without AZ, if they drop AZ and use other vaccines on order, if they come as promised, because there is a shorter waiting time for the 2nd dose. AZ have also not delivered the amount of vaccine promised. I suspect there would be some initial delay though if AZ is stopped.
It is not just blood clots but also low blood platelet levels and brain haemoraging. Very unusual. As with the pill, other alternatives vaccines are available. The responsible Norwegian Minister claims they would actually complete vaccinating Norway a bit earlier this summer without AZ, if they drop AZ and use other vaccines on order, if they come as promised, because there is a shorter waiting time for the 2nd dose. AZ have also not delivered the amount of vaccine promised. I suspect there would be some initial delay though if AZ is stopped.
Finglas I heard it last night from a proper reporter when discussing UVL sinister press conference. TBH I always thought it was 3 months before. SB explained it eloquently yesterday. The Commissions behaviour should be left for the politics thread. However they (EU) have acted like greedy children outside a sweet shop. The stunt they tried to pull with article 16 or the cheap trick on the Australian vaccines shows their incompetence with the roll out. Macrons idiotic words will cost lives and all of this has nothing to do with people but politics. Sometimes you need to just admit that they have had a nightmare.
The EU should have just gone with the US/UK approach from the start. Would’ve sucked for the countries who have imported from the EU and put the whole world more at risk of vaccine-resistant variants but it would’ve been more understandable for Ian, 62, from Lincoln who has used the phrase “playing politics” 68 times in the last two days.
1 in 425,000 people who have received the AZ vaccine have had an issue with blood clotting which is not proven to be linked to the vaccine - let’s cut them a bit of leeway and say that’s 0.25 per 100,000.
1 in 100,000 people who have received the Pfizer vaccine have suffered a severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) which is definitely linked to the vaccine.
On the normal label for a medicine an adverse reaction taking place 1 in 10,000 times is classed as ‘very rare’.
These are incidents only a tiny minority of them are deaths, but let’s all panic, run around and blame the rest of the world.
But let’s pause and look at some actual U.K. death rates from last December
COVID - 240 per 100k
Dementia 110
Heart disease 90
Stroke 50
Lung cancers 50
Chronic respiratory disease 40
Gastrointestinal cancer 25
Prostate cancer 20
Perspective. These are small Dougal, those are far away.
1 in 100,000 people who have received the Pfizer vaccine have suffered a severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) which is definitely linked to the vaccine.
On the normal label for a medicine an adverse reaction taking place 1 in 10,000 times is classed as ‘very rare’.
These are incidents only a tiny minority of them are deaths, but let’s all panic, run around and blame the rest of the world.
But let’s pause and look at some actual U.K. death rates from last December
COVID - 240 per 100k
Dementia 110
Heart disease 90
Stroke 50
Lung cancers 50
Chronic respiratory disease 40
Gastrointestinal cancer 25
Prostate cancer 20
Perspective. These are small Dougal, those are far away.
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Finglas. I will try and find the links but there were precontracts signed by the UK government with AZ, Pfizer, Johnson and Johnson and Jansen in Spring 2019. Putting in money in return for a certain amount of agreed vaccine. ( The most was for AZ, as it was dependent on Oxford technology). I defended it at the time ( unusual for me because I was not defending anything else the government did then )... As a sensible risk.
Of their gambling...only the Johnson and Johnson vaccine bet failed, and they would have lost a few million pounds in that...but really chicken feed to what we gained
So bottom line the UK government was 3 months ahead of the EU in their contract agreements...which along with the UK location of the Oxford vaccine...has given us a head start.
I have 99 problems with this government but the vaccine roll out isn't one
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It’s incredible how in this world of information technology it seems so difficult to clarify the truth. Who’d believe it.
Instead we use this plethora of information/ mis-information to counter argue (for what benefit exactly?).
Even this thread shows the two sides that EU and UK make their stands - and no-one on the sidelines is any clearer. So we are left to make up our own minds.
My opinion, for the minuscule amount it is worth, is that all this posturing puts lives at risk. All the governments and ‘quango’ politicians are running around protecting themselves (or more so their reputations) rather than their people - leaving more open to ill-health, sickness and potential death. All this ‘false news’ over one vaccine against the others is a disgrace and as rates rise across Europe you would think that ALL countries would be doing the best for their people not creating fear that puts/keeps them at risk.
It’s shocking, in a disgraceful way, to hear 50% of a stocked vaccine sits there unused while people argue over not having stock and cases rise across those nations.
Instead we use this plethora of information/ mis-information to counter argue (for what benefit exactly?).
Even this thread shows the two sides that EU and UK make their stands - and no-one on the sidelines is any clearer. So we are left to make up our own minds.
My opinion, for the minuscule amount it is worth, is that all this posturing puts lives at risk. All the governments and ‘quango’ politicians are running around protecting themselves (or more so their reputations) rather than their people - leaving more open to ill-health, sickness and potential death. All this ‘false news’ over one vaccine against the others is a disgrace and as rates rise across Europe you would think that ALL countries would be doing the best for their people not creating fear that puts/keeps them at risk.
It’s shocking, in a disgraceful way, to hear 50% of a stocked vaccine sits there unused while people argue over not having stock and cases rise across those nations.
I don't doubt there might have been a pre contract agreement Beth but the UK actual signed contract is dated 28th August.
I read about both contracts last night and another reason why the EU are angry is the fact that the money they paid in advance 300m+++ euros was to improve AZ production so they could meet the agreed supply targets. I thought it was payment in advance for vaccines. AZ took the 300m euros and then produced one third of the vaccines ordered. What do you think of that?
As my hubbie has just pointed out.
The AZ vaccine is much cheaper than either of the others. There are vaccines to be bought in the future...He just wondered if maybe someone high up in the vaccine industry was sowing seeds of discontent in order to help future sales
The AZ vaccine is much cheaper than either of the others. There are vaccines to be bought in the future...He just wondered if maybe someone high up in the vaccine industry was sowing seeds of discontent in order to help future sales
Lots of good points made Finglas but can you explain why all the complaints about a vaccine that you don’t/won’t use.
It’s like me complaining about not getting my delivery of baked beans because the cupboard is only half full of them and I’m not eating them at the moment.
Have a look at this Beth. It explains things very well.
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/
I really don't know SW. I think the EMA are extremely cautious. I know in this country when the AZ vaccine is available, it is used straight away. We do not store any vaccine. I think France and Germany did store huge volumes of AZ vaccine. I think the Pfizer Biontech vaccine might be considered more "German" for the Germans. The Irish government did try to get their hands on some of those vaccines and I think they were rebuffed on the basis that they are going to get used. The U.S. also have over 1m AZ vaccines in storage awaiting approval too. Does that get mentioned in the press?
To summarise, the EMA are just extremely cautious. There is no ban on the AZ vaccine. It was temporarily suspended. I am hoping to get my vaccine the next couple of weeks and I would take any of them including AZ although I would personally prefer the Pfizer vaccine.
It wasn’t suspended by the EMA, it was suspended by individual governments without reference to the EMA, who have said they are sure that the AZ vaccine is safe and advised that use should continue, but will investigate the reports and release a statement today, I think. If the statement confirms safety, or presumably an acceptable risk, France and Italy have said that they will immediately start using the vaccine again, not sure about the other countries. But sadly the damage might already have been done, many EU countries re struggling to get their citizens to take any vaccine and there is more reluctance around the AZ version, due to previous statement from politicians and the current scare fest.
Future sales for who? The Oxford/AZ vaccine is cheap as a matter of policy, but it’s price will go up once the pandemic is ‘officially’ over, and routine annual vaccination presumably becomes a thing. The Johnson and Johnson single jab is pretty cheap too. The biggest markets in the world are poor countries which will never afford the prices charged by Pfizer/Moderna and don’t have the deep freeze infrastructure to use those jabs anyway. Hence the COVAX initiative to which the U.K. has donated £550m and will, apparently, also give ‘surplus’ vaccine doses we have already ordered. I think the EU has contributed €1bn as well.
I don’t think I understand the point, or I haven’t got my Machiavellian head on today....
Just dissing the opposition Stan, it is my hubbies point of view, not mine.