Off Topic Climate Change & Nature thread

[Ubedizzytoo]

Remember those doom laden videos from several years back saying that melting sea ice will signal the extinction of polar bears and that they will all die a horrible death, swimming until they’re exhausted and then drown ?

Well as I’ve contended before, nature will find its own way to resolve things, despite what some climate activists will tell you. Again I’m not disputing facts, just disagreeing with the overly pessimistic and doom laden prophecies that those activists would have you believe.

Three cheers for the thriving polar bears, hip hip………

Polar bears getting "fatter and healthier" amid ice loss

Scientists think that Svalbard bears have adapted to recent ice loss by eating more land-based prey.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[The Penguin]

Remember those doom laden videos from several years back saying that melting sea ice will signal the extinction of polar bears and that they will all die a horrible death, swimming until they’re exhausted and then drown ?

Well as I’ve contended before, nature will find its own way to resolve things, despite what some climate activists will tell you. Again I’m not disputing facts, just disagreeing with the overly pessimistic and doom laden prophecies that those activists would have you believe.

Three cheers for the thriving polar bears, hip hip………

Polar bears getting "fatter and healthier" amid ice loss

Scientists think that Svalbard bears have adapted to recent ice loss by eating more land-based prey.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nice try, Ube, but I'm still a doom laden climate changer. Yesterday's news contained one story about a huge glacier in the Antarctic melting and climate change forcing a street in Wales to be evacuated because constant flooding has made the houses uninhabitable, uninsurable and unsellable. Pleased for the fat happy polar bears though. Do you think they'll need the weight-loss jab?

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

Nice try, Ube, but I'm still a doom laden climate changer. Yesterday's news contained one story about a huge glacier in the Antarctic melting and climate change forcing a street in Wales to be evacuated because constant flooding has made the houses uninhabitable, uninsurable and unsellable. Pleased for the fat happy polar bears though. Do you think they'll need the weight-loss jab?

I think they’ll be fine if they stick to the reindeer and lay off the walrus. And again, not disputing that the Earth is warming, just cautioning about all that the so called ‘experts’ say about the effects of that warming. They really are just guessing as shown by the chubby polar bears who are supposed to be dieing out through lack of food. Nature is mightier than anything humans can do.

Couldn’t find the article about the Welsh street being flooded, but if it’s true then I extend my sympathies to the residents of Riverside Mews.

 

[Watameire]

I’m lucky enough to be going to south Africa later this year. Kruger national park have had dreadful floods ~£50m worth of damage.

Probably just unlucky rather than the weather system affected by climate warming I guess

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

I’m lucky enough to be going to south Africa later this year. Kruger national park have had dreadful floods ~£50m worth of damage.

Probably just unlucky rather than the weather system affected by climate warming I guess

I thought climate change was supposed to make the Earth a hot, barren desert where nothing ever grows (in this rotten old hole) but at the same time everywhere is flooded. I can’t keep up with the latest doom mongering. Drowning polar bears, fat polar bears, droughts, floods, dry summers, wet winters, where will it all end I ask ?

 

[TwoWrights]

I thought climate change was supposed to make the Earth a hot, barren desert where nothing ever grows (in this rotten old hole) but at the same time everywhere is flooded. I can’t keep up with the latest doom mongering. Drowning polar bears, fat polar bears, droughts, floods, dry summers, wet winters, where will it all end I ask ?

With our terminal breath, believe it.


The views expressed in my posts are not necessarily mine.

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

With our terminal breath, believe it.


The views expressed in my posts are not necessarily mine.

And still the Earth will carry on and adapt without us. Might be the best thing in the long run.

 

[lardiman]

Extreme climate events, like all truly destructive things in life, mostly affect people who cannot afford to protect themselves against them.

When the expanding Sahara and Namib deserts in Africa finally meet across the equator, swallowing all the remaining rainforest and savannah grasslands being squeezed in between them, it will be the poorest 90% of people who die.
Those with the means are already beginning to remove themselves to (presently) safer parts of the Planet. Like here.
Hundreds of thousands today. Tens of millions tomorrow.

Even the USA (drill baby drill) has a land mass away from the coastlines which would already be much like Africa were it not for ongoing Human efforts to keep it producing crops. Eventually those efforts will fail before the unstoppable power of climate change, and 90% of the United States will become a vast, sterile desert.

Necessity is the mother of invention.
The truest thing ever said. Human civilisation only rose in the first place because millions of square miles of fertile land (where hunter gatherers could happily live without Cities and the Wheel and Kings and Wars) degraded into parched desert after the end of the Ice Age around 12,000 years ago.

Humanity will ultimately survive, likely out among the stars.
But not drawn to them by a desire to explore strange new Worlds and boldly go etc.
Rather forced off the surface of a Planet where the Climate has become impossible to tolerate.

In the end it doesn't matter why.
Man made or natural forces, it's largely an exercise in Human vanity to even bother arguing about it.
The fat Polar bears don't care whose fault it is that they are now hunting walrus rather than seals.
Just as the Mammoths, Woolly Rhinos and Neanderthals didn't hold a grudge against God for their slow extinction.

It is a matter of profound sadness in my view that Humankind cannot help the poorest and most vulnerable among our own species.
Delusions of sentience and civilised behaviour aside, we are only behaving exactly as our vanished Ice Age companions behaved.
We migrate, we squeeze ourselves into the ever shrinking regions in which we can still live.
The only difference is that our tool making ingenuity allows us to create a few new habitable environments.
Where a tiny, tiny fraction of our current numbers will be able to carry on drawing breath.

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

Extreme climate events, like all truly destructive things in life, mostly affect people who cannot afford to protect themselves against them.

When the expanding Sahara and Namib deserts in Africa finally meet across the equator, swallowing all the remaining rainforest and savannah grasslands being squeezed in between them, it will be the poorest 90% of people who die.
Those with the means are already beginning to remove themselves to (presently) safer parts of the Planet. Like here.
Hundreds of thousands today. Tens of millions tomorrow.

Even the USA (drill baby drill) has a land mass away from the coastlines which would already be much like Africa were it not for ongoing Human efforts to keep it producing crops. Eventually those efforts will fail before the unstoppable power of climate change, and 90% of the United States will become a vast, sterile desert.

Necessity is the mother of invention.
The truest thing ever said. Human civilisation only rose in the first place because millions of square miles of fertile land (where hunter gatherers could happily live without Cities and the Wheel and Kings and Wars) degraded into parched desert after the end of the Ice Age around 12,000 years ago.

Humanity will ultimately survive, likely out among the stars.
But not drawn to them by a desire to explore strange new Worlds and boldly go etc.
Rather forced off the surface of a Planet where the Climate has become impossible to tolerate.

In the end it doesn't matter why.
Man made or natural forces, it's largely an exercise in Human vanity to even bother arguing about it.
The fat Polar bears don't care whose fault it is that they are now hunting walrus rather than seals.
Just as the Mammoths, Woolly Rhinos and Neanderthals didn't hold a grudge against God for their slow extinction.

It is a matter of profound sadness in my view that Humankind cannot help the poorest and most vulnerable among our own species.
Delusions of sentience and civilised behaviour aside, we are only behaving exactly as our vanished Ice Age companions behaved.
We migrate, we squeeze ourselves into the ever shrinking regions in which we can still live.
The only difference is that our tool making ingenuity allows us to create a few new habitable environments.
Where a tiny, tiny fraction of our current numbers will be able to carry on drawing breath.

Either all that or we’ll crack nuclear fusion and have a limitless, completely green energy source forevermore.

 

[lardiman]

Either all that or we’ll crack nuclear fusion and have a limitless, completely green energy source forevermore.

Which will be freely shared among all the Nations of the World?
A Fusion reactor that will fit in the back of a truck (for example) is unlikely to have no possible use as a weapon of mass destruction.
And no number of fusion reactors will be able to mitigate Climate change.
Water pistols against a forest fire.

So the 'limitless' green energy will most likely be used to power the exodus of the 0.001% of Humanity that is well connected enough to reach for the stars and boldly go.

Faith that Science will save us is only a mirror image of faith that God will save us.
Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe there is only enough room in Heaven for 144,000 souls?
Or something like that.
144,000 is a good enough guess at how many people will be able to leave the Planet before lights out.
Our technology cannot hope to compete with the power of nature.
Be that Mother nature, or Human nature.

"I think I saw you in an ice cream parlour
Drinking milk shakes, cold and long
Smiling and waving and looking so fine
Don't think you knew you were in this song"

Five Years - David Bowie

 

[The Penguin]

It's not a hard and fast rule, but generally speaking the statistics show that the more money you have the greater your carbon footprint. From wealthy pensioners jetting off and cruising round the world right up to the top 1% with their private jets heated swimming pools etc. Including that environmentalist Bill Gates who has a huge carbon footprint.

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

Which will be freely shared among all the Nations of the World?
A Fusion reactor that will fit in the back of a truck (for example) is unlikely to have no possible use as a weapon of mass destruction.
And no number of fusion reactors will be able to mitigate Climate change.
Water pistols against a forest fire.

So the 'limitless' green energy will most likely be used to power the exodus of the 0.001% of Humanity that is well connected enough to reach for the stars and boldly go.

Faith that Science will save us is only a mirror image of faith that God will save us.
Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe there is only enough room in Heaven for 144,000 souls?
Or something like that.
144,000 is a good enough guess at how many people will be able to leave the Planet before lights out.
Our technology cannot hope to compete with the power of nature.
Be that Mother nature, or Human nature.

"I think I saw you in an ice cream parlour
Drinking milk shakes, cold and long
Smiling and waving and looking so fine
Don't think you knew you were in this song"

Five Years - David Bowie

Hang on. I thought burning fossil fuels was supposed to be the cause of all known ills, including climate change.

Are you now contending that stopping doing so won’t stop climate change?

If so then I’d suggest that you are supporting my assertion that the entire climate change lobby is indeed just a scam, which makes billions and billions for those inventing ‘green’ solutions, which don’t work on a large enough scale.

And I’m afraid that we will never live ‘amongst the stars’. The distances involved, time needed and the fact that we are physically designed to live on earth and nowhere else make that a virtual impossibility.

Even nuclear fusion, which could provide limitless green energy on earth, doesn’t solve the issues of interstellar travel.

It would need new discoveries leading to a new set of laws of physics to make interstellar travel possible I’m afraid. And don’t get me started on religion. That is literally the biggest scam of all time.

Interesting debate by the way. Can you imagine this discussion on certain other forums ?

“Now listen ‘ere fella……..”

 

[lardiman]

There are many people who genuinely want to minimise the effects of climate change.
And there are many scientists who are saying our emissions are accelerating that change, and/or making it more extreme.
Almost all of these people are acting in good faith, in my view.

I don't subscribe to the idea that Climate change is a giant scam with thousands of conspirators just out to create a fake industry and make themselves very rich.

We have two parallel events going on it would seem.
One happening over a timescale of thousands of years. The other being measured yearly, and recorded for around a Century.
I'm satisfied that all the pollution we Humans produce is accelerating Climate change.
There is solid evidence that our dangerous refrigeration chemicals were destroying the Ozone layer, until Worldwide action was taken. Now that layer has at least partially regenerated.

However, I don't think even reducing all carbon emissions to zero will have much effect on the Climate now.
There is too much heat (energy) in the equation. The more ice that melts, the more heat is retained.
It's a positive feedback circuit.

We could try to mitigate as much as possible, and try to preserve the regional cultures that will be lost around the Globe.
But most of the people affected have nothing to offer in return except their gratitude.
So instead we just continue trying to drive National economic growth. Which will if successful drive more consumption and more pollution.
Another positive feedback circuit.
I wonder how long it will be before server farms consume more power that we do.
Then of course there is the coming rise of AI.
Taking the matter out of our hands.

 

[The Penguin]

If so then I’d suggest that you are supporting my assertion that the entire climate change lobby is indeed just a scam, which makes billions and billions for those inventing ‘green’ solutions, which don’t work on a large enough scale.



“Now listen ‘ere fella……..”

The "Climate change lobby" exists alongside the fossil fuel lobby, but the latter is much more powerful At the last COP conference there were more of them than delegates! That's where the real money is. You should have a look at the "Earthshot" project, which is about those who are discovering ways of protecting the environment. The awards ceremony is on ITV once a year, and I find it quite inspiring, a real education. For those of us who have never doubted the scientific research and evidence it helps to maintain the happy illusion that everything will be OK. Nobody wants to die and everybody wants to go to heaven.

 

[Watameire]

Penguin, I’m totally with you.

For me the issue is the fossil fuel companies their lobbying and the companies with fossil fuels like the US for example with their insane president and his sycophantic followers. They just don’t want to give up the riches that they’ve enjoyed for so long .

Many disbelievers (including Ubdizzy perhaps) are likely being unduly influenced by the companies and the media on the payroll.

Ubdizzy - I find myself disagreeing a lot with your views on the climate and your politics. I don’t always find it a comfortable read but can I say I appreciate that you are engaging in the way that you are.

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

Penguin, I’m totally with you.

For me the issue is the fossil fuel companies their lobbying and the companies with fossil fuels like the US for example with their insane president and his sycophantic followers. They just don’t want to give up the riches that they’ve enjoyed for so long .

Many disbelievers (including Ubdizzy perhaps) are likely being unduly influenced by the companies and the media on the payroll.

Ubdizzy - I find myself disagreeing a lot with your views on the climate and your politics. I don’t always find it a comfortable read but can I say I appreciate that you are engaging in the way that you are.

I’m always happy to disagree with someone and debate that disagreement if done in a respectful way on both sides.

There was a perception earlier in the debate that Mr Penguin and I were at polar opposites regarding the effects of burning fossil fuels, but with reasoned debate we found that we didn’t disagree at all on the mechanics and facts. Where there is room for difference is in the predictions and forecasts being made. As in the somewhat frivolous polar bear example, I contend that so called experts are simply guessing at what will happen in the future and particularly in how nature will respond. The experts that said polar bears will die out simply got it wrong and other experts could just as easily be wrong about other things.

We (humans) are not as clever as we like to believe we are. Nature was running the planet long before we come along and it will run the planet long after we’ve gone. And saying that something is irreversible is also not true. Nature can reverse anything, as it has done time and time before without it having anything to do with humans.

The planet has been far hotter in the past and far colder in the past and nature just balances out both those extremes when it’s ready. And it will do so again, over and over. In the meantime I strongly object to being forced to go backwards, by having a heating system which is worse than previous heating systems, a car which is worse than previous cars etc etc. And all the while knowing that billions of pounds of profit are being made by very rich people, because me and others are forced to pay more to have these inferior products and systems. I know that billions are also made by the fossil fuel industries but at least they are giving me and millions of others the best products and the products that we actually want, ie a gas boiler that keeps my house warm and a car that I can drive for 4-500 miles without having to recharge it.

 

[The Penguin]

Climatologists have said right from the start that the changes in weather patterns would be unpredictable. They're doing their best, but don't get everything right. For example they didn't realise that the oceans would absorb so much heat, which has slowed it down. Which isn't entirely good news.

 

[lardiman]

Not great news for the coral.
If the oceans keep warming, maybe 99% of it will be wiped out.
An event equivalent to the loss of 99% of tropical rain forest.

Coral reefs are the undersea rain forests, in terms of the diversity of species they support.
Uncounted types of fish and invertebrates will die out.

Eventually, after thousands of years, the coral reefs will recover - as a tiny fraction of those living today will have the capacity to survive ocean temperature rises, and will pass that trait on to future generations. Coral has been around for 500 million years. It has survived huge climactic changes in the past.

Algae and fungal forms will proliferate in warmer seas. Not good news for fish and marine reptiles, which will be decimated by the diseases and toxins that algae and fungus bring with them. Vast tracts of open ocean may end up covered in green algal slime for much of the yearly cycle.
Perhaps that could be harvested and converted into food, to replace land crops lost to the expanding deserts.
The corporations that produce it could even give it a euphemistic trade name, like Soylent Green.

 

[Ubedizzytoo]

The earth will always adapt. Species come and species go. Sometimes the Earth will cool, sometimes it will warm.

But don’t trust the ‘experts’ who are often wrong, especially when their predictions are dictating how we live our lives and people are making huge profits from those predictions.

Trust no one.

 

[The Penguin]

The earth will always adapt. Species come and species go. Sometimes the Earth will cool, sometimes it will warm.

But don’t trust the ‘experts’ who are often wrong, especially when their predictions are dictating how we live our lives and people are making huge profits from those predictions.

Trust no one.

I like experts. If my gas boiler goes on the blink I get an expert to fix it.