Couldn't agree more, that single mindedness to be the best, not since Zidane.
Bale might have it mind.
British players abroad.
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Couldn't agree more, that single mindedness to be the best, not since Zidane.
Bale might have it mind.
Exposure as well.
Why go to Ossasuna/Real Sociedad (who are 6th in the league) when you can play in the PL with West Ham or even Sunderland.
Going over there to play for a "big" club i think most would jump at the chance, if they got that chance, but when Borrusia Dortmund prefer to buy Ji from us, rather than a young English player (or even an established one) I think that says it all.
British players are too bloody expensive as well, we probably price them out of the market, and you can get better for a lot less abroad (just look at the influx of foreign players in the PL to see that).
I do believe that it would be great if a lot more went abroad, even to the likes of ossanuna, rather than dropping down to the championship, but if this rule that if you loan a player abroad is true (ive only ever seen it in one chronicle report) and there has to be a sell clause in it, then its no wonder a lot stay in this country and go down a division or 2 to get experience.
Even with the list above, we have never been great exporters, I remember BBC interviewing the head youth coach of Ajax years ago, asking him if he would have any British youth players, he said no, not even Owen (at the time he was young) as they were just not good enough, and he didnt think they would improve much as they thought they had already made it.
We also have 92 professional clubs they can go to, I doubt many would want to go down to the 3rd tier of Spanish/French/Italian football, but league 1 is still pretty competetive for a young player wanting to ply his trade (either on loan or full time) and lets be honest, exposure again, he will be in the "limelight" at somewhere like Port Vale/Carlisle/Hartlepool rather than Pena Sport (never heard of them but thats my point). In spain as well you also have A, B, C teams for a few clubs, who play in the lower leagues, we dont have anything like that here, so the big clubs can have 3 squads of players, and keep all of the relatively happy as they are getting competative football, but they have 50 players already, so they dont need any British players to bulk their ranks.
Why go to Ossasuna/Real Sociedad (who are 6th in the league) when you can play in the PL with West Ham or even Sunderland.
Going over there to play for a "big" club i think most would jump at the chance, if they got that chance, but when Borrusia Dortmund prefer to buy Ji from us, rather than a young English player (or even an established one) I think that says it all.
British players are too bloody expensive as well, we probably price them out of the market, and you can get better for a lot less abroad (just look at the influx of foreign players in the PL to see that).
I do believe that it would be great if a lot more went abroad, even to the likes of ossanuna, rather than dropping down to the championship, but if this rule that if you loan a player abroad is true (ive only ever seen it in one chronicle report) and there has to be a sell clause in it, then its no wonder a lot stay in this country and go down a division or 2 to get experience.
Even with the list above, we have never been great exporters, I remember BBC interviewing the head youth coach of Ajax years ago, asking him if he would have any British youth players, he said no, not even Owen (at the time he was young) as they were just not good enough, and he didnt think they would improve much as they thought they had already made it.
We also have 92 professional clubs they can go to, I doubt many would want to go down to the 3rd tier of Spanish/French/Italian football, but league 1 is still pretty competetive for a young player wanting to ply his trade (either on loan or full time) and lets be honest, exposure again, he will be in the "limelight" at somewhere like Port Vale/Carlisle/Hartlepool rather than Pena Sport (never heard of them but thats my point). In spain as well you also have A, B, C teams for a few clubs, who play in the lower leagues, we dont have anything like that here, so the big clubs can have 3 squads of players, and keep all of the relatively happy as they are getting competative football, but they have 50 players already, so they dont need any British players to bulk their ranks.
Great post Steve, and another cracking point raised.
Having B,c even D teams competing at league level, it was mooted here and rejected, why?
Barcelona B are in the Segunda, correctly they cannot go higher unless Barca are relegated to protect the integrity of the league, but what you have is a mini Barcelona, players wear the kits, they play the same system, they eat, drink, train the same as the first team, and as such, if they look ready for the step up, they are comfortable in the system, as they are in effect doing the same role.
It works, Barca, Real, they produce so many players, the Primera Liga features some 80 or 90 players developed via these 2 clubs, many of them don't initially make it at Barca or Real, but go on to have excellent careers elsewhere, some go back, some play for Spain, it's a system that gets the young players in a full blooded competitive league with the support of the big clubs.
The national team benefits.
Would a player feel more special playing for Manchester United B than Rochdale? Yes.
Would it potentially drive them on to improve, to keep improving? Yes.
These B teams aren't bankrolled as such, they have their own stadiums and generate gate receipts, they are backed with coaching etc, of course.
Having B,c even D teams competing at league level, it was mooted here and rejected, why?
Barcelona B are in the Segunda, correctly they cannot go higher unless Barca are relegated to protect the integrity of the league, but what you have is a mini Barcelona, players wear the kits, they play the same system, they eat, drink, train the same as the first team, and as such, if they look ready for the step up, they are comfortable in the system, as they are in effect doing the same role.
It works, Barca, Real, they produce so many players, the Primera Liga features some 80 or 90 players developed via these 2 clubs, many of them don't initially make it at Barca or Real, but go on to have excellent careers elsewhere, some go back, some play for Spain, it's a system that gets the young players in a full blooded competitive league with the support of the big clubs.
The national team benefits.
Would a player feel more special playing for Manchester United B than Rochdale? Yes.
Would it potentially drive them on to improve, to keep improving? Yes.
These B teams aren't bankrolled as such, they have their own stadiums and generate gate receipts, they are backed with coaching etc, of course.
The problem is, we have too many teams as it is, and who could have a B team? i am just looking through the countless leagues Spain has (its crazy) but i guess most will be our equivalent to non league football).
You obviously have the "big clubs" having B,C,D squads but you have
Albacete B
Zaragoza B
Osasuna B
Cacerano B (who)
from http://www.tablesleague.com/spain/
so where would you draw the line?
IMHO it could work if we reduced the number of clubs/replaced them with these, but we all know thats never going to happen. (and i dont think i would want it too either) but we could make 20 leagues like Spain i suppose, but then that would probably dilute what we already have.
You obviously have the "big clubs" having B,C,D squads but you have
Albacete B
Zaragoza B
Osasuna B
Cacerano B (who)
from http://www.tablesleague.com/spain/
so where would you draw the line?
IMHO it could work if we reduced the number of clubs/replaced them with these, but we all know thats never going to happen. (and i dont think i would want it too either) but we could make 20 leagues like Spain i suppose, but then that would probably dilute what we already have.
All the teams in Spain are subject to promotion & relegation Steve, so if a B team gets to say Liga Adelante level, they earned it.
There are cases of B teams being higher than A teams, when one has been relegated the other passing them on the way up, they are not allowed in the same league.
You'd find a lot of clubs B teams in England would remain in the pyramid, but the bigger clubs would develop, and long term it would benefit the national team, and create players of a higher standard that might not make it at a United or Chelsea, but will be more prepared for a Sunderland, a Hull.
They regionalize the leagues in Spain & Germany until you reach a certain level, so I'd imagine this would be the way to go here too.
Yeah, i know how it works, in Championship manager years ago i was Barca, and made the B team my A team and vice versa, I got Barca relegated and the B team promoted, got sacked but still done it lol.
My point is though, we have 92 professional teams, how many teams in spain are classed as professional, all the Primera Division, 80% of 2nd division (not counting B teams) then the rest, probably 10% max of the rest of all those teams.
You cant just say to Hartlepool, sorry Man U want a B team, you are going to the conference.
Or instead of 4 leagues, we have 6 leagues with B teams, how would you do it, you couldnt just put them in, you would have to get in by merit, but then you have the conference, and then we have the regional divisions under that, so would they start off in the Northern Premier league say, but then a Sunderland B could have an Altidore tearing up that league and scoring 100 goals (we can wish anyway) and just storming the league.
Im just not sure if we tried it now, how we would incorporate all the the B,C,D teams into the League system we have now.
If we could and make it fair, I would be all for it, im just not sure how.
My point is though, we have 92 professional teams, how many teams in spain are classed as professional, all the Primera Division, 80% of 2nd division (not counting B teams) then the rest, probably 10% max of the rest of all those teams.
You cant just say to Hartlepool, sorry Man U want a B team, you are going to the conference.
Or instead of 4 leagues, we have 6 leagues with B teams, how would you do it, you couldnt just put them in, you would have to get in by merit, but then you have the conference, and then we have the regional divisions under that, so would they start off in the Northern Premier league say, but then a Sunderland B could have an Altidore tearing up that league and scoring 100 goals (we can wish anyway) and just storming the league.
Im just not sure if we tried it now, how we would incorporate all the the B,C,D teams into the League system we have now.
If we could and make it fair, I would be all for it, im just not sure how.
I think realistically Steve they'd have to incorporate promotion from the development leagues into the conference north/south, and go from there.
We couldn't just put them in the league, like you say that would never be accepted, and rightly so.
We couldn't just put them in the league, like you say that would never be accepted, and rightly so.
Of course not, that ain't fair.
Going of on a tangent here, couldn't we just kick the welsh clubs out, make some space?
But even then, you have to look further down the line for me.
Lets say for arguments sake, all PL teams and 50% of Championship teams have a B team
20 + 12 = 32 teams.
Most if not all will storm through the lower leagues, and eventually get promoted to the football league. (top 4 divisions)
in 30 years time (with only 2 or 3 getting promoted every year) we would have 32 B teams in the football league (top 4 divisons)
which means we would lose 32 teams now from the league, the likes of Port Vale, Hartlepool even a team like Wolves or Birmingham might go the journey, even us if it went pear shaped over a couple of seasons.
I just dont think thats fair, and we would have to increase the number of teams in the league system, not replace them, so 6 leagues instead of 6, but it would need a hell of a shakeup.
Lets say for arguments sake, all PL teams and 50% of Championship teams have a B team
20 + 12 = 32 teams.
Most if not all will storm through the lower leagues, and eventually get promoted to the football league. (top 4 divisions)
in 30 years time (with only 2 or 3 getting promoted every year) we would have 32 B teams in the football league (top 4 divisons)
which means we would lose 32 teams now from the league, the likes of Port Vale, Hartlepool even a team like Wolves or Birmingham might go the journey, even us if it went pear shaped over a couple of seasons.
I just dont think thats fair, and we would have to increase the number of teams in the league system, not replace them, so 6 leagues instead of 6, but it would need a hell of a shakeup.
So basically, what you are saying is 'the big boys get bigger, **** everyone else'?
I'm not in for that like, i already think it's disgusting as to how the money is shared out between the prem, and **** the rest.
I don't think it's as cut and dried as that mate, look at Spain, 2 B teams in the Adelante, Germany, where the highest they are allowed is 3. Liga, only 2, Stuttgart & Dortmund.
I don't see why in England the B teams would have any bigger run over than any other country, they would give young players competitive games, but they'd carry smaller crowds etc, they'd need to generate income to an extent, would a player rather play in front of 3-4000 United fans who are semi interested in Hyde than say 8,000 passionate Vale fans? 30,000 Wolves fans? Not likely.
Players will still have their ceiling, and for most that will be beneath the top clubs, it will just maybe aid those with the talent in taking it further.
Can't believe we have a thread here about football missionaries without mentioning Gazza. He bravely traveled to one or two of the worlds most deprived third world areas - namely 'Boro and Glasgow. PLUS. Lets never forget he actually came from Dunston, poor bugger.
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If there were player restrictions, under 23, 3 foreign player rule, injured for more than 3 months = 3 games max (no age restriction) then fine, but a man city couldn't put a milner in there all season, or man u a tevez say when he was playing up.
If we don't change the league system, we would still lose some teams, its inevitable if we keep it at 92 teams, something would have to be tweaked even if just 1 B teams gets promoted to the league.
If we don't change the league system, we would still lose some teams, its inevitable if we keep it at 92 teams, something would have to be tweaked even if just 1 B teams gets promoted to the league.
Yes & no, whichever way you look at it, the league overall is more competitive by having the strongest 92 in it, regardless of who they may be.
Liam Brady did canny at Milan. But yeah, agree with you that Bale will surpass the lot.
When players go out on loan from premier league to championship/league 1, I thought the players "home" club continue to pay their wages?
There isnt any reason why we couldnt send our development players out on loan to Holland, France, Italy etc. I dont know if its the club or the players who are unwilling
There isnt any reason why we couldnt send our development players out on loan to Holland, France, Italy etc. I dont know if its the club or the players who are unwilling
If I was a fan of Hartlepool, and an Arsenal B with a young Wilshire in their team, made my team get relegated to the conference, I wouldn't be happy, Hartlepool is more important to the league IMHO than any B team.
Totally agree.
Why let the big clubs have their way, is goes way beyond football, it's all about economy. Why let clubs or towns die to pander to the whims of the few.
If prem clubs were not all ****, the wealth would be shared, smaller clubs would get more. Thus giving them a chance to compete, this has a massive knock on effect on the whole communities, creating jobs, spreading the money around...
But no, bigger clubs are ****s for taking it all, not giving others a chance....I include SAFC in that statement.