Off Topic Brexit
- Thread starter Sammy's Silky Skills
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May is a wimp, the EU need to get a decent deal or other nations will follow our lead. They are all watching and waiting to see what happens with us first. If we leave with No Deal and go off and make some good deals elsewhere people will be so fast out the door Germany and France will be the only two left in a decade.
Tell them no deal to the current BS "agreed" by May. Then go strike some decent deals with the Asia and N/S American markets (where most of our products come from anyway) the EU will fall to pieces.
Tell them no deal to the current BS "agreed" by May. Then go strike some decent deals with the Asia and N/S American markets (where most of our products come from anyway) the EU will fall to pieces.
I get where you are coming from and we certainly don't want people feeling like democracy counts for nothing but a general election is held every 5yrs so if you don't like what the government are doing then you can vote them out.
Dipping in and out of the EU isn't so easy and a proper informed decision needs to be made
Should have read on a bit further, that is basically my point but much better put!!
I was also a remain voter. However Groot is right. You can re-apply to become part of the EU at any time. If in 5 years time there is a swell of public opinion saying they want back in, then we can vote again to decide if the country wants to. It is in fact no different to a general election not delivering what was promised. I didn't like it at the time, but if we go back and do it again then I'll lose even more faith in the democratic state of this country. I don't think people quite understand how wrong it is to redo the vote unless there has been some sort of illegal tampering.
Just out of interest, if we did re-run a vote, would you allow people who didn't vote first time round, to vote second time round? I'm just interested how far people are willing to move the goalposts when it comes to democracy.
No wonder Sepp Blatter lasted so long with us all holding these kind ideals.
Would you count the votes of people who have died since 2016? I'm assuming not?
I'd count the votes of people who have come of voting age, as well as people who chose not to vote last time for whatever reason. Choosing not to vote can be a decision in itself (a daft one imo but there you are). I'd also like to find a way to reflect the opinions of all UK citizens who are living in the EU. Many were denied a vote in 2016, despite the fact that they may have to uproot their lives depending on the result.
You may be able to reapply but would they have to take us back?
Probably would allow everyone a vote. Not a very good excuse but apathy or over confidence that remain would easily win probably stopped people voting.
There will be some people who are now old enough to vote but weren't old enough then.
I didn't vote. I genuinely didn't know which way to go at the time.
If there was a 2nd vote tomorrow I'd vote remain
Sorry but I find this wrong. I can understand if you have come of age and choose to vote. That is fair enough and I'd actively encourage that - they have a genuine reason for not voting first time round. I can understand if somebody has popped it, that is a lost vote for either side. To suggest that we include people who simply were too arrogant to vote last time or couldn't be bothered, or whatever reason is completely unacceptable. It is akin in construction to setting a tender deadline, all the contractors stick to the deadline, but one contractor spends an extra 5 days on the tender but is still allowed to submit. They had that opportunity, and opening that up to them now is wrong to those who chose to vote first time round. I'd also question what shady practices would be employed to ensure their vote went either way.
Whether the EU would take us back is hypothetical (I believe they would welcome our finance and support). The point is the country voted to leave the EU. The terms were not known and people still chose to leave. I can't see that as anything other than the will of the electorate. As Groot said earlier, re-run this and you are opening a can of worms. Every general election could be fairly contested if that is the case. I think we have to think very carefully about what democracy is. I have no doubt some of the people asking for democracy to be put to one side (as that is what people are asking), would be the very same people who criticise how other regimes around the world run their elections and their faux democratic efforts.
Kazakh - Which UK citizens living in the EU? The rules were simple and correct - British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, along with Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, were eligible to vote - very generous rules. I know we had a couple of people who had not lived here since the 80's wanting to vote and a court refused. Its a non starter and so it should be.
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If it has been paralzed for too long how can remaining in the EU be the answer? We need freedom from the Cartel, after all we are the 5th biggest economy in the World which is why the EU wants our cash to prop it up.
If you are going to have a new referendum every one who is eligible should have the chance to vote. You can’t start excluding people on whether they voted last time. It would be a logistical nightmare and also undemocratic.
The rules for voting in the referendum were slightly different to normal GE rules. Think if you had been registered any time in last 15years you could register even if you weren’t resident there now.
I hear what people are saying about having to leave and then we could apply to come back again in a few years time if the people wanted it but after the ****show that this latest withdrawal has been we can’t go through this every few years. Our government has been effectively paralysed for the last two years.
Was a very good opinion piece by Mervyn King on Bloomberg that summarises how the government has failed in these negotiations. Well worth a read.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...vyn-king-says-may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-betrayal
The rules for voting in the referendum were slightly different to normal GE rules. Think if you had been registered any time in last 15years you could register even if you weren’t resident there now.
I hear what people are saying about having to leave and then we could apply to come back again in a few years time if the people wanted it but after the ****show that this latest withdrawal has been we can’t go through this every few years. Our government has been effectively paralysed for the last two years.
Was a very good opinion piece by Mervyn King on Bloomberg that summarises how the government has failed in these negotiations. Well worth a read.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...vyn-king-says-may-s-brexit-deal-is-a-betrayal
I bloody well hope so, I wasn't on the Electoral Register for the last vote as we were travelling without having a fixed address.
A comment further up this thread about the SNP asking for the same vote 'again and again until they get the right answer'. Well, it's a case of the first vote went against Independence because it was promised that, before the vote, that within two years the UK would move to a federalised set of four countries. A lot of people in Scotland went for that option and when it was clear that promise wasn't even carried out in the least, Scotland is saying "hang on, you've renaged on your promise and do we want another referendum without the lies".
A little like the call for the second referendum, I suppose.
I see the claims that we had a referendum a few years ago and we should all stick with it regardless a bit like a doomsday cult sitting around a kool-aid machine. There's a vote to drink the kool-aid and just over half of the people vote to do it because their souls will be taken on inter-galactic spaceships to nirvana that are waiting just over the next hill. The remainder, forty-eight percent, think that this may not be such a good idea and argue the fact.
There is one condition, if the vote goes to take the poison then they all will take it: doubters and all.
The debate goes on and on. The crux of the argument is that spaceships have been detected by Old Bob in town who runs a hardware store. And the Aye voters say that his word is good enough and that they all should take the kool-aid from the machine.
Then it turns out that Old Bob has a pile of rat poison he can't shift and is willing to sell it to the cult. Too late the vote has been taken, most people, apart from a few hardened suicide seekers decide that the whole thing is just an attempt at outside interference to get one, or a few, people rich.
Should they still drink the poisoned kool-aid?
There is one condition, if the vote goes to take the poison then they all will take it: doubters and all.
The debate goes on and on. The crux of the argument is that spaceships have been detected by Old Bob in town who runs a hardware store. And the Aye voters say that his word is good enough and that they all should take the kool-aid from the machine.
Then it turns out that Old Bob has a pile of rat poison he can't shift and is willing to sell it to the cult. Too late the vote has been taken, most people, apart from a few hardened suicide seekers decide that the whole thing is just an attempt at outside interference to get one, or a few, people rich.
Should they still drink the poisoned kool-aid?
Not a perfect analogy but it's just come to me now.
A logistical nightmare created by those very people who simply couldn't be arsed. Or were too arrogant. I can sympathise with some people like CDGH, and those who come of age. The others don't deserve a vote. All of this is exactly why running a 2nd vote should never happen. We had a vote. It went the way it did, now we should keep moving forward. Its all this dithering which is making this country a laughing stock. We can't even abide by a democratic vote anymore. The EU will be sitting laughing at us and frustrated in equal measure. It was never going to be comfortable but we don't seem to have the stomach for anything remotely challenging. When people voted leave, are we to believe they did so on the basis of some utopian Brexit? We didn't know what it would be. I'm sure leavers had some things in their head which would be on their wishlist. Surely though they knew that in a NEGOTIATION some key things would have to fall off that list? Otherwise it wouldn't be a negotiation.
As it happens whereas I was a remain voter, I think the doomsday currently being pushed by bitter remain voters will never come to fruition. We have already survived outside of the EU without issue. I just personally liked some of things being in it brought and I thought it would be beneficial to my business. I also feel the border/immigration issue is a red herring anyway. We already had the power to deal with that issue but chose not to. Leaving the EU isn't going to make the Government suddenly crackdown.
To be honest I would fear the repercussions now of reversing a vote. The divide between the EU and ourselves has deepened with this whole process. The EU will not make things easy for us heading forward and I have no doubt this process will have weakened the UK position in any EU should it be reversed. If people honestly think that reversing it, will see us welcomed with open arms, they don't understand politics! They will welcome our money, expertise and our input in key areas. There will be a price to pay for this episode however.
It sums up this country and its people that we get to this stage and say "Can we do it again, just we're not sure" I used to be indecisive, then I lived in England and met its people, now I'm not so sure.
I do like that piece mind. It sums up the incompetence in how this has been approached. The government in this country has long needed a modernisation, a step away from the jobs for boys culture. We've long needed people who have vision and an ability to plan properly. Perhaps this whole episode can do some good and see a radical revolution of the political framework in this country. I won't hold my breath though.
I don't mind personally if we reject the deal on offer. I just don't think that should facilitate another vote. It should just mean we say to the EU, we've had a look at your/our PM's deal, and we'll have to say thanks but no thanks. Put the ball back into their court. We say we either re-negotiate or leave without a deal. I don't think they'll choose the latter. I also don't think the world will end if they do.
The Norway style agreement was agreed in Norway as the best way to respond to a referendum which had ended 52-48 not to join the EU. A competent government would have seen it as the only sensible response to our own referendum. Instead they went off the deep end with May's red lines, anti immigration rhetoric and massive division within the Tory party. In order to claim a mandate for Rees-Mogg's cliff-edge no deal exit, the result should have been 80%-plus for leaving.
The anti-immigration is going to work two ways: what about us who wish to travel, work and live (not necessarily as highly paid 'skilled' workers)? This bigotry and the xenophobia of the leavers is what is really pissing me off, I can tell you.
"We're Anglo Saxons" they say. Well, **** off back to Saxony and to the homelands of the Angles because, as sure as ****, it ain't here.
"We're Anglo Saxons" they say. Well, **** off back to Saxony and to the homelands of the Angles because, as sure as ****, it ain't here.
^^^ I voted Leave and I'll be honest, I couldn't give one little **** about this. It never even crossed my mind, it caught me off-guard the first time I heard a Brit complaining about losing their right to free movement. I doubt most other Leavers had any plan to emigrate to the EU either.
TGN, this is exactly my point. Why should those who have no intention of ever leaving the UK restrict my travels to the EU?
If they wish to stay at home, then that's fine. I have no problem with that. I wouldn't ever even dream for a second to force them to endure Foreign Life even for a moment and, likewise, I can't see why they should force me to stay here.
I've lived and worked in Europe, some of it in the EU and some of it in Norway before they got a little cosier with the EU and I loved every minute of it. It was only family reasons that brought me back and I regret not still living overseas. And I would like to go over there again with, perhaps, a non-skilled little job but now, I can't because someone somewhere has decided that foreigners should be kept away and not mixed with.
If they wish to stay at home, then that's fine. I have no problem with that. I wouldn't ever even dream for a second to force them to endure Foreign Life even for a moment and, likewise, I can't see why they should force me to stay here.
I've lived and worked in Europe, some of it in the EU and some of it in Norway before they got a little cosier with the EU and I loved every minute of it. It was only family reasons that brought me back and I regret not still living overseas. And I would like to go over there again with, perhaps, a non-skilled little job but now, I can't because someone somewhere has decided that foreigners should be kept away and not mixed with.
But those who are voting to Leave aren’t affecting your travels. It’s actually the EU countries who will be restricting your ability to travel. It’s a matter for them as to what rules they set with regard to allowing “aliens” to work in their countries not us. Just because people in this country are concerned about freedom of movement doesn’t mean the EU countries have to put restrictions on your ability to work in their countries.
But the main point is that you don’t always get what you want. It’s a majority thing. It’s democracy. It’s life.