Breeders' Cup 2011

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Eddie, there is absolutely no guarantee that Frankel will run at Breeders' Cup next year. If connections opt for a crack at the Champion Stakes it will completely rule him out of BC as there is only 2 weeks before the meeting.

No one is saying that the horses listed are all time greats, but they are leading G1 winnning horses in Europe, the kind you would suspect connections would be interested in sending overseas to compete.

The fact is that BC is way behind the times in terms of running a truly international event. Horses running in Dubai, Hong Kong and Japan do not pay any entry fees, have free travel for the horses and free first-class travel and accomodation for the owners/trainers/jockeys.

This is opposed to the massive entry fees levied by Breeders' Cup - if you are lucky enough to own a horse that was registered with Breeders' Cup as a foal you will still have to pay anything between $15,000 and $150,000 (depending on the race - the Marathon being the cheapest and the Classic being the most expensive) in entry fees. If you are unlucky enough to have a horse that was NOT registered these fees leap to a minimum of $165,000 and up to $300,000 JUST TO ENTER THE RACE.
Add to this the cost of shipping the horse, paying travel costs for your trainer/stable lad and jockey and your own flights and accomodation and you can see why BC is in danger of being something only the mega rich can afford.

Marco Botti had planned to send JOSHUA TREE over, but when his owners found out it woud cost them $190,000 just to enter that race they said no way.
 
Eddie, Dream Ahead may not a great of the sport but name a multiple group 1 winning 2 year old who won multiple group one's at 3 from the last ten years. Very few do it.
 
rounders said:
Eddie, Dream Ahead may not a great of the sport but name a multiple group 1 winning 2 year old who won multiple group one's at 3 from the last ten years. Very few do it.
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New Approach, Frankel, Zarkava, Sir Percy, Shamardal, Rock Of Gibraltar, High Chaparral, Motivator, Authorized, St Nicholas Abbey, Fame And Glory, Johannesburg, Oasis Dream, Mastercraftsman, George Washington, Dubawi, Hawk Wing, Misty For Me, Again, Natagora, Nannina, Finsceal Beo, Divine Proportions, Six Perfections, Special Duty, Indian Ink

There is probably more

Of the horses that guy mentioned, only two of them had any chance of winning a BC race, Frankel and Danedream. Both have reasons for not going that are nothing to do with the present state of the BC, why would the other no hopers be dragged half way round the world to finish tailed off?

The favourites for our Arc, Leger and Champion Stakes and two of our best mares of the last 4 years Midday and Goldikova are all running at the BC. We are as well represented in the big races as we ever are, the guy is talking complete rubbish.
 
eddieveeee said:
New Approach, Frankel, Zarkava, Sir Percy, Shamardal, Rock Of Gibraltar, High Chaparral, Motivator, Authorized, St Nicholas Abbey, Fame And Glory, Johannesburg, Oasis Dream, Mastercraftsman, George Washington, Dubawi, Hawk Wing, Misty For Me, Again, Natagora, Nannina, Finsceal Beo, Divine Proportions, Six Perfections, Special Duty, Indian Ink

There is probably more

Of the horses that guy mentioned, only two of them had any chance of winning a BC race, Frankel and Danedream. Both have reasons for not going that are nothing to do with the present state of the BC, why would the other no hopers be dragged half way round the world to finish tailed off?


I'm not interested in the rest if the post - sorry to be rude - but out of the 20 odd horses you've put up as multiple group 1 winners at 2 and 3 you've got a few wrong.

Frankel - 1 group 1 at 2 (Dewhurst)
Zarkava - 1 Group 1 at 2 (Marcel Boussac)
Sir percy - 1 Group 1 at 2 (Dewhurst)
Shamardal - 1 Group 1 at 2 (Dewhurst)
High Chaparral - 1 Group 1 at 2 (Racing Post Trophy)
Motivator - 1 Group 1 at 2 (Racing Post Trophy)
Authorized - 1 Group 1 at 2 - (Racing Post Trophy)
St Nicholas Abbey - 1 Group 1 at 2 - (Racnig Post Trophy), Zero Group 1's at 3, 1 Group 1 at 4
Fame And Glory - 1 Group 1 at 2 - Criterium - 1 Group1 at 3 Irish Derby - 3 gr1's at 4 and 5
Johannesburg - 4 gr 1's at 2 - none at 3
Oasis Dream - 1 gr 1 at 2 and 2 group 1's at 3.
Dubawi - 1 group 1 at 2 and 2 group 1's at 3
Hawk Wing - 1 group 1 at 2,3 and 4
Again - 1 Group 1 at 2 and 3
Natagora -1 group 1 at 2 and 3
Nannina -1 group 1 at 2 and 3
Finsceal Beo - 1 Group 1 at 2 and 2 at 3
Six Perfections - 1 group 1 at 2 and 2 at 3
Special Duty - 1 group 1 at 2 and 2 at 3
Indian Ink - 1 group 1 at 2 and 3


I've trawled through the records of every horse you've put up and of the 26 only 6 actually won MULTIPLE GROUP 1 RACES AT 2 AND 3. It's a veritable who's who of the best horses on this century barring a few obvious ones like Sea The Stars. That surely sums up how difficult it is to consistently win at the top table as a two year old and as a three year old and why i think you've underrated Dream Ahead a little.
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No i wouldnt have thought so, he won a Morny that nothing came out of, he won a middle park on bottomless ground that nothing else handled and he loved, won weak British Sprints and then beat a 75% fit, past her best Goldikova.

Decent horse, i dont think because he won that extra group 1 at 2 really means anything, especially when you consider the circumstances. He has been beaten out of sight any time he raced against Frankel.

Good horse on his day,. but not a great, numerous horses on the list i gave where greats, Dream Ahead is not, so 1 extra group 1 at 2 means nothing to me.
 
right, you're obviously blinded by your owner opinion to consider the facts when they're in front of your face. I never said he's a great horse but those statistics don't lie. It's also very easy to pick holes in the form of many group one races. at the end of the day he achieved something that a roll call of great horses didn't. that doesn't make him a great horse as I've said but it does warrant a huge amount of respect.
 
Eddie.....By any chance did you used to have an account on the old 606, and go by the name of Alsilvo? I recall all his rantings about American racing.

The Breeders Cup is a mickey mouse event, if the mighty Dangerous Midge can win the 2nd most valuable race :biggrin:
 
Statistics dont win races, you cant buy history, you cant train class.

Dream Ahead looks alot better than he is on paper, just like Workforce did as a 3yo, he was never a true Derby and Arc winner in reality, even though he won both races.

Shergar, British Champions Day is a mickey mouse meeting, if Cirrus Des Aigles can win the most valuable event, I would say there is stronger Italian Group 2 form about.
 
go and find a stronger piece of recent italian group 2 form.

Also back to DA, doesn't winning multiple g 1's at two and three, beating Goldikova in the process equate to it's owner little piece of history?
 
Eddie.....So there is stronger Italian G2 form about is there? You realy are a clown. Cirrus Des Aigles beat a top class field, in a track record time. 2nd was So You Think, 3rd was Snow Fairy 4th was Midday, all multiple G1 winners.

Dangerous Midge would never win any G1 in Europe, you know that I know that and everyone else knows that, and if Cirrus Des Aigles faced Dangerous Midge he would win on the bridle :biggrin:
 
eddieveeee said:
Are these supposed to be the best horses in the world or something? The horses that any would be great must be judged against? The case this guy has made is completely laughable.
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Sorry - which horses exactly are you advocating are the best in the world who don't show up on that list? Lets consider the top 20 (actually 21 due to ties) timeform rated horses in the world. Of this list of 20 horses, I'm willing to discount Rewilding and Canford cliffs as obvious exceptions - but Not Workforce or Dream Ahead as they have been retired 'at the end of their season' - they could have chosen to go to the BC but didn't.

So, this list of the worlds 19 best: 6 are heading for the BC, none of which are higher than tied 9th.

8 of this top 19 went to Champions Day, only 2 of which were lower than tied 9th.

The facts remain that if the BC cup were everything you seem to think it is, then the worlds elite horses would be aimed at it. This simply isn't the case. I'm more than happy to admit it is the best two days of american racing, but at best it is equivalent to Arc weekend or what Champions Day will hopefully become, certainly not any more than them.
 
And also I find it highly unlikely that Frankel will be targeted at the Breeders Cup next season - the Champion Stakes seems much more likely.
 
Well said Danish Pastry, I actually think Champions Day was the best even better than Arc day, 7 of the top 10 rated horse's in the world were there. Which other meeting can boast that? :biggrin:
 
King Shergar said:
Well said Danish Pastry, I actually think Champions Day was the best even better than Arc day, 7 of the top 10 rated horse's in the world were there. Which other meeting can boast that? :biggrin:
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Spot on - I went to Champions Day and it was a fantastic success. Excellent races with the worlds best horses and solid prize money. I certainly think that the 'Champions Series' has a lot to recommend it as a way forward for British Flat racing to market itself.
 
As I've said on the other thread, I probably need to reemphasise my point. I am in no way crabbing American racing or American form, my point was simply that BC has failed in its (self-titled) bid to be the "World Thoroughbred Championships". The best horses in the world are not running, some of the very good horses are yes, but not the best. Where are the Aussies, the Japanese, the South Americans, the South Africans? If BC was so important to non-US based connections then people would plan their horses campaigns around it. The simple fact is, they don't.

As I've pointed out, of the (I think) 29 "overseas" entries, 11 have come from Ballydoyle. That shows you who BC has relevance to. Coolmore are in the business of making stallion prospects, hence why Cape Blanco had several G1 runs (and wins) in the US this year. Surprise, surprise, when his retirement was announced they packed him off to their Kentucky farm, Ashford. His runs in the US were nothing more than an advertising campaign to US breeders because Coolmore knew they could not justify standing another son of Galileo in Ireland.
 
The fact the Breeders Cup is called "The World Thouroughbred Championships" is a disgrace, and another example of how arrogant Americans are. Most Americans wouldn't even be able to tell you where Europe, Australia or South Africa where on a map. As far as they are concerned the world is America, so they call every American event a world event. For instance the World Series of Baseball. Who other than America actually play baseball?

Ourselves in the UK call our best days racing, British Champions Day. We are not arrogant enough to refer to it as World Champions Day:biggrin:
 
King Shergar said:
The fact the Breeders Cup is called "The World Thouroughbred Championships" is a disgrace, and another example of how arrogant Americans are. Most Americans wouldn't even be able to tell you where Europe, Australia or South Africa where on a map. As far as they are concerned the world is America, so they call every American event a world event. For instance the World Series of Baseball. Who other than America actually play baseball?

Ourselves in the UK call our best days racing, British Champions Day. We are not arrogant enough to refer to it as World Champions Day:biggrin:
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Baseball is prety big in Japan and Cuba. And Americans always do that stuff with their sports, it's pointless getting outraged about it.
 
Who other than America actually play baseball?
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In Major League Baseball, there are the Toronto Blue Jays, who come from next door.

There are baseball leagues in Japan, Mexico and Australia and there are some non-professional leagues in the UK. There are a significant number of Latin American players plying their trade in America and even a couple of Japanese, like Hideki Matsui the 2009 MVP with the New York Yankees.
 
Also, to be nitpicking, the "The World Series" is so named because it was originally sponsored by an American newspaper called "The World". True story.
 
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