Black Managers

[jenners04]

ffs,

****e like this does my head in, i don't care what colour of your skin is if you are good enough for the job, saw years ago ****e about why there isn't enough asian players playing football!! maybe because they are ****e!!

 

[johnsonsbaby]

The bigger issue isn't black representation among coaching staff and managerial staff but racism within society. I think it was Southgate who was interviewed not so long ago and said (to paraphrase) that football simply mirrors society. Within the club and within the dressing rooms, players are a family and don't give a **** where they're from or what the look like. I think he's bang on with that.


And those potential managers who've typically been in the news have had extremely poor experience or have done pretty ****e at the lower clubs they were given chances at. Maybe they just weren't good enough to get interviews or jobs. Danny Rose cited Campbell recently at only being able to get a stint at Macclesfield town - that's were many top managers start out! Low down the leagues and then work their way up. Barnes bombed at Tranmere. Ince bombed at every club he went to. Heskey only started coaching in 2017. Hughton's done alright and had his chances after working his way up for a good 10years in the coaching system, Les Ferdinand has shot up to DoF rapidly at QPR, Vieira is high up at City. It's not like there's a world class, qualified and experienced black manager being denied gigs here.

I just think it's easy to claim racism when there's zero evidence of it, particularly when the same clubs have no issue at all signing the top footballing talent regardless of nationality, race, religion or otherwise. Selected racism for managers and coaches just doesn't seem logical.

You've said a lot of good stuff there. Racism is a societal problem, not a sport problem. I don't think we will ever solve it but we have to keep trying. At football matches mob mentality takes over which is why you get the racist chants. These people probably wouldn't dream of being racist one on one but feel safe doing it in a crowd. Nevertheless if you don't have at least a modicum of it in you as an individual, it wouldn't come out in a crowd situation.

In terms of zero evidence of racism in an interview situation, how would you propose it was collected in that particular scenario? How do you get evidence of covert racism?

 

[jenners04]

Another issue with racism is they only highlight it when it suits their agenda.

That in itself is a problem

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Another issue with racism is they only highlight it when it suits their agenda.

That in itself is a problem

I get that people are angry or confused or whatever when 'the race card is played' but personally I keep an open mind because I have no proof either way.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I get that people are angry or confused or whatever when 'the race card is played' but personally I keep an open mind because I have no proof either way.

And we must do so ad we also have to keep it in mind that we are a bunch (that we assume) of largely but not exclusively white old man talking about this issue.

the best we can be is allies of this cause.

 

[Neither here or there]

Piece on sky sports about the Chelsea Women's manager being in contention for Sarris job. Transfer ban looming and potentially hazard/sarri to leave. This could be a difficult role to take over for anyone. Would Chelsea be the pioneer for having the first female manager in the english top flight?

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Piece on sky sports about the Chelsea Women's manager being in contention for Sarris job. Transfer ban looming and potentially hazard/sarri to leave. This could be a difficult role to take over for anyone. Would Chelsea be the pioneer for having the first female manager in the english top flight?

They'd be absolutely mad. they have hired a manger for vast sums then not backed him. they keep doing stupid things like that. back the man in place.

 

[Neither here or there]

They'd be absolutely mad. they have hired a manger for vast sums then not backed him. they keep doing stupid things like that. back the man in place.

Sarri being touted for Juve Job so its not outside the realms of possibility of Chelsea having a different person in charge next season. Promoting from within would be admirable but likely to be crazy like you said since its the Chelsea job!

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Sarri being touted for Juve Job so its not outside the realms of possibility of Chelsea having a different person in charge next season. Promoting from within would be admirable but likely to be crazy like you said since its the Chelsea job!

true but they've not back him already so if he does go to juve and tells cheslea to do one then its their own fault. if they are stuck unable to hire a manager and turn to someone who's no experience at the level of money and ego... welll... brilliant bring it on for us.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

You've said a lot of good stuff there. Racism is a societal problem, not a sport problem. I don't think we will ever solve it but we have to keep trying. At football matches mob mentality takes over which is why you get the racist chants. These people probably wouldn't dream of being racist one on one but feel safe doing it in a crowd. Nevertheless if you don't have at least a modicum of it in you as an individual, it wouldn't come out in a crowd situation.

In terms of zero evidence of racism in an interview situation, how would you propose it was collected in that particular scenario? How do you get evidence of covert racism?

How do you get evidence of covert racism?

You don't. You can make up whatever reason you like for rejecting an applicant when it comes to paperwork. Which is why I'm always skeptical of those who cite racism as the excuse for not getting opportunities or jobs. I can't deny it happens, but they can't also prove it does.

How is the problem solved though? Sadly I'm not paid mega bucks to spend time to sit down and plan that. I don't know. I do know that it's certainly not taught behavior within schools, educational programs (both in and out of school), nor in any clubs professional or otherwise. Therefore, it is probably learned behavior through home life or communities, from those who have chips on their shoulders about not getting jobs due to 'bloody foreigners', from those who are too stubborn or ignorant to societal change or generally just thick. That's where I go back to my initial point: Things change over time as society evolves, like it has been for the past 30years and will continue to do so with the newer generations. It's not the answer people want to hear, but change like this takes time and it will sort itself out eventually. In the mean time, jump hard on those ignorant knobs with bans and fines and let them know it isn't tolerated.

 

[Superfirmino]

Managers could be green, blue or purple. It doesn't matter, they are judged on their ability, results and performances. That is why I believe that black ex players turned managers being discriminated against is a load of bollocks.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

How do you get evidence of covert racism?

You don't. You can make up whatever reason you like for rejecting an applicant when it comes to paperwork. Which is why I'm always skeptical of those who cite racism as the excuse for not getting opportunities or jobs. I can't deny it happens, but they can't also prove it does.

How is the problem solved though? Sadly I'm not paid mega bucks to spend time to sit down and plan that. I don't know. I do know that it's certainly not taught behavior within schools, educational programs (both in and out of school), nor in any clubs professional or otherwise. Therefore, it is probably learned behavior through home life or communities, from those who have chips on their shoulders about not getting jobs due to 'bloody foreigners', from those who are too stubborn or ignorant to societal change or generally just thick. That's where I go back to my initial point: Things change over time as society evolves, like it has been for the past 30years and will continue to do so with the newer generations. It's not the answer people want to hear, but change like this takes time and it will sort itself out eventually. In the mean time, jump hard on those ignorant knobs with bans and fines and let them know it isn't tolerated.

There have been several stories about people of colour being discriminated against when applying for jobs based purely on their name.

Oxford university did an experiment sending fake job applications were all qualifications written down were identical but for the applicants name on some they used minority ethnic names and on others Anglo Saxon names. On average the 'white' sounding names got 60% more positive response than the non-white sounding names. There are lots more examples like this. The point being that some form of racism is evident when things like this are still happening.

My view still remains that there's no harm in having Rooney Rule for managerial job applications. Black candidates being interviewed takes absolutely nothing away from the process. The best man should still get the job.

 

[carlthejackal]

There have been several stories about people of colour being discriminated against when applying for jobs based purely on their name.

Oxford university did an experiment sending fake job applications were all qualifications written down were identical but for the applicants name on some they used minority ethnic names and on others Anglo Saxon names. On average the 'white' sounding names got 60% more positive response than the non-white sounding names. There are lots more examples like this. The point being that some form of racism is evident when things like this are still happening.

My view still remains that there's no harm in having Rooney Rule for managerial job applications. Black candidates being interviewed takes absolutely nothing away from the process. The best man should still get the job.

This

There was a very well conducted study on trainee doctors (newly qualified) job applications. It was conducted by experienced researchers in London. They found that there was a huge difference in short listing when the names of non whites were left out compared to when they were left in. Another study involving a smaller number showed that when the doctor changed their names from an ethnic sounding one to a caucasian sounding one their chances of being short listed doubled or trebled. Now all members of interviewing panels in the health service are NOT given names of applicants at the short listing stage. Subconscious prejudice does exist in all walks of life.

I know that many people here are exasperated about the subject and think that it is not worth discussing. They also think that if someone is good then they'll get a job eventually. I am afraid it doesn't work like that. How can a good and talented person get a job if he/she is not even considered because of subconscious prejudice?

Absolutely right that the Rooney rule is not positive discrimination. It is only about giving the chance for a non white person to considered and interviewed. It doesn't stop chairmen to pay lip service to this and appoint whoever they want and ignore a very good black interviewee. It only asks the interviewing panel to include a black person on that short list. Nothing else. It is a tiny little step and those up in arms about positive discrimination or not choosing the best candidate for the job really show their ignorance about this issue.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

There have been several stories about people of colour being discriminated against when applying for jobs based purely on their name.

Oxford university did an experiment sending fake job applications were all qualifications written down were identical but for the applicants name on some they used minority ethnic names and on others Anglo Saxon names. On average the 'white' sounding names got 60% more positive response than the non-white sounding names. There are lots more examples like this. The point being that some form of racism is evident when things like this are still happening.

My view still remains that there's no harm in having Rooney Rule for managerial job applications. Black candidates being interviewed takes absolutely nothing away from the process. The best man should still get the job.

Is this the same Oxford University where 10/32 colleges in 2015 didn't accept a single black British A-level student?

However, for every story where it's demonstrated, there's stories where it's not.
I dunno, it's an interesting topic of discussion and I don't intend to argue or fight the corner of denying racism exists.

My views are pretty simple:

• It's impossible to prove, it's also impossible to disprove. For every case where there might be subconscious racial profiling, there's cases where the applicant was just a poor one.

• Racism is a societal problem fundamentally and that must be addressed first - football will follow suit. (I'm very confident that black managers will be a non-issue in 10/15 years though, just like black players are a non-issue nowadays)

• The most contentious view I have is that I disagree with the Rooney rule. It's either positively offering an interview based on skin colour (where the whole aspirations of anti-racism movements is to avoid skin colour being a factor) or a pointless exercise where an interview is offered by the applicant has zero chance anyway. I accept that others may disagree, but that's my view.

Interesting none-the-less

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

my view is that progression on these things means in 20 years they wont be an issue.

however.... people always want faster progress and changing attitudes is like glaciers moving. It's easier change the generation than it is the mind of a racist old white fart.

change the man doing the interview to change the attitude.

we only need however look at the so called struggle for equality in the workplace (for women) to see that women can be just every bit as bad as men in terms of paying women less.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Is this the same Oxford University where 10/32 colleges in 2015 didn't accept a single black British A-level student?

However, for every story where it's demonstrated, there's stories where it's not.
I dunno, it's an interesting topic of discussion and I don't intend to argue or fight the corner of denying racism exists.

My views are pretty simple:

• It's impossible to prove, it's also impossible to disprove. For every case where there might be subconscious racial profiling, there's cases where the applicant was just a poor one.

• Racism is a societal problem fundamentally and that must be addressed first - football will follow suit. (I'm very confident that black managers will be a non-issue in 10/15 years though, just like black players are a non-issue nowadays)

• The most contentious view I have is that I disagree with the Rooney rule. It's either positively offering an interview based on skin colour (where the whole aspirations of anti-racism movements is to avoid skin colour being a factor) or a pointless exercise where an interview is offered by the applicant has zero chance anyway. I accept that others may disagree, but that's my view.

Interesting none-the-less

Don't want to make this about Oxford but here's an interesting article nonetheless. It explains the low number of successful black entrants very well.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...to-offer-a-place-to-the-best-black-candidates

I respect your view on the Rooney Rule, I just don't agree with it. Nor do I see the increase in black managers happening as quickly as you predict. As you say it's an interesting discussion.