Black Managers

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

Sorry but this is where you are wrong. This is far from a magic wand. This is a little step to redress that imbalance.

A magic wand would promptly get the proportion of black managers up significantly. This rule will do nothing of the kind. It will take decades for the imbalance to be sorted. There are many people who have similar views to yours. That is it will sort itself out eventually. So we will have many black candidates being interviewed as a matter of obeying the rules and ticking the boxes with no real intent of employing them . But at least it gives them some hope and for those who are really talented they've got a chance to impress someone. How do you get a job if you cannot even get short listed because the owners have got a closed mind?

A magic wand is precisely what the likes of Sol is asking for. More black managers and now and there just isn't a large enough pool of former black players in that pool to cherry pick the best candidates. Not yet but there will be.

The fact that owners allow black players to sign for their clubs surely shows that they aren't as closed mind as we're lead to believe? The fact that there are more and more black players within the leagues than ever before is proof that things do sort themselves out over time as society moves forward. Football is extremely reflective of society. in 20 years time, if things continue as they are, there will be proportionally a much higher number of black mangers and coaches in the game. Someone before mentioned punditry now compared to 20years ago and there's another example.

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing that racism exists in our game (and society), I'm just not a fan of the Rooney rule and honestly, it's exactly for the reasons you think it's a good thing! Giving false hope. Ticking a box. Forcing people to select based on race. The only way to have a time where racism isn't an issue is where skin colour isn't even a factor - negatively or positively.

 

[carlthejackal]

Do you seriously think chairman are not singing black managers on the grounds that they're black? Really?

If you are asking whether they are prejudiced against black people, no. If you are asking whether chairmen think that in general black ex-players may not be as good as their white counterparts all things being equal, then I really am not so sure. They may have lots of anxieties about how the manager will be respected and followed by the players.

 

[carlthejackal]

A magic wand is precisely what the likes of Sol is asking for. More black managers and now and there just isn't a large enough pool of former black players in that pool to cherry pick the best candidates. Not yet but there will be.

The fact that owners allow black players to sign for their clubs surely shows that they aren't as closed mind as we're lead to believe? The fact that there are more and more black players within the leagues than ever before is proof that things do sort themselves out over time as society moves forward. Football is extremely reflective of society. in 20 years time, if things continue as they are, there will be proportionally a much higher number of black mangers and coaches in the game. Someone before mentioned punditry now compared to 20years ago and there's another example.

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing that racism exists in our game (and society), I'm just not a fan of the Rooney rule and honestly, it's exactly for the reasons you think it's a good thing! Giving false hope. Ticking a box. Forcing people to select based on race. The only way to have a time where racism isn't an issue is where skin colour isn't even a factor - negatively or positively.

I've got 2 points.

More black players coming into our game had nothing to do with lessening of the prejudice. It was to do with the fact that more and more of the black players were talented and reached a high standard. One thing that chairmen understand well is money . No chairmen will forgo money and a higher league position because of their (possible) prejudice.

2. False hope. If you've had to apply for many jobs without even having a single interview, you'll understand that for many (like me) it is soul destroying. Give me false hope anytime.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Or maybe it's because they're around 40 years old and should now be looking into getting their qualifications and learning the ropes having finished their playing career. Most managers are former players.

Go back 20 years to when these black players were at their peak and there simply weren't as many in the leagues as there are now. Lets say a small number of them might consider coaching, another smaller proportion attempt it and an even smaller proportion do well. The numbers add up when you look at where we were.

Jump forward to now - 33% BEM players in the premier league and you've got good chances of those players becoming managers and coaches in the next 10-15 years.

Things move on naturally. You can't wave a magic wand and blame a racism card at everything.

"You can't wave a magic wand and blame a racism card at everything"

You can't not either.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

I've got 2 points.

More black players coming into our game had nothing to do with lessening of the prejudice. It was to do with the fact that more and more of the black players were talented and reached a high standard. One thing that chairmen understand well is money . No chairmen will forgo money and a higher league position because of their (possible) prejudice.

2. False hope. If you've had to apply for many jobs without even having a single interview, you'll understand that for many (like me) it is soul destroying. Give me false hope anytime.

By the your logic of point 1, more black managers coming into our game will have nothing to do with lessening of the prejudice. It will be to do with more of the black managers being talented and reaching a higher standard. No chairman will forgo money and a higher league position) because of their (possible) prejudice.

Which is exactly what I said will happen through time as the huge influx of said talented black players from the 90s and 00s reach the age whereby their next steps are towards management and coaching. i.e. now with qualifications and learning the ropes at lesser jobs before trying the big jobs.

RE point 2. I have applied for jobs and been turned down only to later find that the advert posted was for a job earmarked for internal applicants already, but legally they had to open the job to anyone. Naturally, declined. THAT is soul destroying. Spending hours prepping for an interview and being rejected because you had no hope from the start.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

"You can't wave a magic wand and blame a racism card at everything"

You can't not either.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

I agree in part, but I think they're targeting the wrong solution. I don't see how the Rooney rule helps tackle the bigger problem. If anything, and considering the thickos who monkey chant at games and in the streets, they're more likely to resent people of minority even further if they're being gifted interviews purely because they are of a different ethnicity, not because they're more capable.

I just think it's the wrong solution. People are stupid.

 

[luvgonzo]

It's an interesting debate, I don't like the idea of the Rooney rule I think it hides the problem.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

the problem here is thst good manager a don't interview per above.

neither really should coaches.

you should be part of a club or working your network.

if a.managerial vacancy does arise seriously how many companies in the real.world really advertise. ordinary workers sure but you'll not imo see a prem or championship club do anything bar approach people to talk and see whos open.

if you are not being approached ask why imo.

have you the badges, have y oy built a rep? have you done anything to attract anyone as a coach not an ex player?

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Do you seriously think chairman are not singing black managers on the grounds that they're black? Really?

I have no way of knowing and neither do you. I think you need to allow for the fact that it might happen before dismissing it out of hand.

 

[Zanjinho]

I have no way of knowing and neither do you. I think you need to allow for the fact that it might happen before dismissing it out of hand.

Sorry, didn't realise we were under oath, I thought this was a football forum where people shared their opinions...

 

[Milk not bear jizz]

It's a bit suspicious why there are so few black managers; however I won't go so far as to say it's racism keeping all black managers out (although in some individual cases racism probably does play a part).

At the end of the day, any chairman who doesn't sign the best talent for a job is shooting himself in the foot. Race shouldn't play a part negatively or positively when hiring a manager and the best chairmen will realise this.

 

[johnsonsbaby]

I agree in part, but I think they're targeting the wrong solution. I don't see how the Rooney rule helps tackle the bigger problem. If anything, and considering the thickos who monkey chant at games and in the streets, they're more likely to resent people of minority even further if they're being gifted interviews purely because they are of a different ethnicity, not because they're more capable.

I just think it's the wrong solution. People are stupid.

"...the wrong solution" to what though?

The problem is, or was - according to various black potential managers - that black men aren't being interviewed for managerial roles. The Rooney Rule solves that problem. Black men are now guaranteed to at least be given an interview.

I assume that for each vacancy there's no limit on candidates so how does it harm anything or anyone to simply interview black candidates along with their white counterparts? Just adding a few to the list. The process shows that the problem of not getting interviewed is being addressed. It may act to simply appease black candidates it may even throw up a good man for the job who would never have ordinarily been considered, either way it's not taking a job off anybody.

Just by way of comparison. There is a very small % of transgender people in this country but recently a few complained about not having the 'right' public toilet to use resulting in mass change to toilets in universities, schools, shopping centres, stadiums etc.etc. A massive bow down to the demands of a minuscule section of society yet the mere mention of trying to make a fairer job prospect for blacks is widely viewed as some sort of disgrace - a kind of 'how dare they' situation.

 

[carlthejackal]

...

RE point 2. I have applied for jobs and been turned down only to later find that the advert posted was for a job earmarked for internal applicants already, but legally they had to open the job to anyone. Naturally, declined. THAT is soul destroying. Spending hours prepping for an interview and being rejected because you had no hope from the start.

It is interesting that our positions on any issue in life (not just football management) is influenced by our own experiences. Whilst that episode you described was soul destroying for you, it would be far from it for me. It would have kept hope going for me (and i suspect for many other people looking for jobs). The worst thing in life IMO is hopelessness (sorry I don't mean to come over all heavy )

 

[johnsonsbaby]

It is interesting that our positions on any issue in life (not just football management) is influenced by our own experiences. Whilst that episode you described was soul destroying for you, it would be far from it for me. It would have kept hope going for me (and i suspect for many other people looking for jobs). The worst thing in life IMO is hopelessness (sorry I don't mean to come over all heavy )

I always had you down as a glass half empty chap then I saw how excited and positive you were about the title race when most weren't and in honesty it gave me hope as well and also made me think I'd misjudged you

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The glass is never half empty nor half full, its 50% liquid, 50%air.

 

[Zanjinho]

The glass is never half empty nor half full, its 50% liquid, 50%air.

It's 50% towards another pint

 

[johnsonsbaby]

Sorry, didn't realise we were under oath, I thought this was a football forum where people shared their opinions...

Sorry didn't mean to sound self righteous.

Nobody can say with certainty that people interviewing for managers are racist or not so neither side can claim to be right in their view. Like you say these are just opinions.

 

[Klopp's Mannschaft]

"...the wrong solution" to what though?

The problem is, or was - according to various black potential managers - that black men aren't being interviewed for managerial roles. The Rooney Rule solves that problem. Black men are now guaranteed to at least be given an interview.

I assume that for each vacancy there's no limit on candidates so how does it harm anything or anyone to simply interview black candidates along with their white counterparts? Just adding a few to the list. The process shows that the problem of not getting interviewed is being addressed. It may act to simply appease black candidates it may even throw up a good man for the job who would never have ordinarily been considered, either way it's not taking a job off anybody.

Just by way of comparison. There is a very small % of transgender people in this country but recently a few complained about not having the 'right' public toilet to use resulting in mass change to toilets in universities, schools, shopping centres, stadiums etc.etc. A massive bow down to the demands of a minuscule section of society yet the mere mention of trying to make a fairer job prospect for blacks is widely viewed as some sort of disgrace - a kind of 'how dare they' situation.

The bigger issue isn't black representation among coaching staff and managerial staff but racism within society. I think it was Southgate who was interviewed not so long ago and said (to paraphrase) that football simply mirrors society. Within the club and within the dressing rooms, players are a family and don't give a **** where they're from or what the look like. I think he's bang on with that.


And those potential managers who've typically been in the news have had extremely poor experience or have done pretty ****e at the lower clubs they were given chances at. Maybe they just weren't good enough to get interviews or jobs. Danny Rose cited Campbell recently at only being able to get a stint at Macclesfield town - that's were many top managers start out! Low down the leagues and then work their way up. Barnes bombed at Tranmere. Ince bombed at every club he went to. Heskey only started coaching in 2017. Hughton's done alright and had his chances after working his way up for a good 10years in the coaching system, Les Ferdinand has shot up to DoF rapidly at QPR, Vieira is high up at City. It's not like there's a world class, qualified and experienced black manager being denied gigs here.

I just think it's easy to claim racism when there's zero evidence of it, particularly when the same clubs have no issue at all signing the top footballing talent regardless of nationality, race, religion or otherwise. Selected racism for managers and coaches just doesn't seem logical.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

I remember when John Barnes was appointed manager of Celtic without experience. He nearly relegated Celtic, Barnes
was given the opportunity but he failed. On the contrary, Chris Hughton has done very well with limited budget but he
keep on being sacked.To succeed in top position as a black you need to be extremely good. This is only opinion and may be wrong.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The bigger issue isn't black representation among coaching staff and managerial staff but racism within society. I think it was Southgate who was interviewed not so long ago and said (to paraphrase) that football simply mirrors society. Within the club and within the dressing rooms, players are a family and don't give a **** where they're from or what the look like. I think he's bang on with that.


And those potential managers who've typically been in the news have had extremely poor experience or have done pretty ****e at the lower clubs they were given chances at. Maybe they just weren't good enough to get interviews or jobs. Danny Rose cited Campbell recently at only being able to get a stint at Macclesfield town - that's were many top managers start out! Low down the leagues and then work their way up. Barnes bombed at Tranmere. Ince bombed at every club he went to. Heskey only started coaching in 2017. Hughton's done alright and had his chances after working his way up for a good 10years in the coaching system, Les Ferdinand has shot up to DoF rapidly at QPR, Vieira is high up at City. It's not like there's a world class, qualified and experienced black manager being denied gigs here.

I just think it's easy to claim racism when there's zero evidence of it, particularly when the same clubs have no issue at all signing the top footballing talent regardless of nationality, race, religion or otherwise. Selected racism for managers and coaches just doesn't seem logical.

I just want to point out that Poor sol campbell has had a very long and public history of issues, including mental struggles so i'm sorry but thats goin to be held against you when jobs are about.

Macclesfield town frankly have been brave giving him his chance. We should be positive about the club in this case not so negative. praise macclesfield.

In fairnless to ince he did ok a couple times but he was probably a little over ambitious in the chances he took. You really need to pick the right job at the right time and work at it and get noticed and head hunted.

But to the original point if Emile heskey only started coaching in 2017 (and i don't know at what level) then to be expecting a big managerial job with nothing to back it and wondering why then using the race card as the excuse smacks of having it a wee bit too easy as a star player.


Its like this... I'm sure we would all agree we were SHOCKED the day carragher packed it in and went off doing punditry not coaching. he was the one not gerrard who was supposed to be the one. so..... there you go. he stated it was wanting an easy life....

I think theres so much money now i doesn't take much of a knock to put these guys off. I honeslty think the less known guys who NEED to keep earning are the guys motivated to be coaches.