Force India for sure it seems (although not certain), but then I can't find anything close to concrete about other teams trying it. Theres hints that its Ferrari and Lotus but FI looks the most certain.
Back to tyres...
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Force India for sure it seems (although not certain), but then I can't find anything close to concrete about other teams trying it. Theres hints that its Ferrari and Lotus but FI looks the most certain.
And that means the teams that have been routinely swapping will lose the advantage they currently have, and that in turn explains why they a) they are now fighting with Pirelli and the FIA over the planned change
That implies Ferrari and Lotus are doing it since they've been most outspoken against the change.
Mercedes don't have a leg to stand on as far as I'm concerned. They know testing's banned, they know that to change that there would need to be agreement from all the teams and they know that would never happen, and that discussions never took place. Even if Mercedes thought the FIA had sanctioned it they know they can't do that without unanimous agreement from the teams. I'm sure I read earlier that they didn't announce the test because they knew the other teams would protest it.
That implies Ferrari and Lotus are doing it since they've been most outspoken against the change.
Mercedes don't have a leg to stand on as far as I'm concerned. They know testing's banned, they know that to change that there would need to be agreement from all the teams and they know that would never happen, and that discussions never took place. Even if Mercedes thought the FIA had sanctioned it they know they can't do that without unanimous agreement from the teams. I'm sure I read earlier that they didn't announce the test because they knew the other teams would protest it.
There seems to be lots of weird things cropping up.
First off do teams usually pack up completely including their huge hospitality suits on the Sunday? If not surely some other team members were around at the track on the Monday maybe Tuesday still packing up? Did they not see Merc still with garages in tact?
According to what I have read at any 'test' the FIA medical team and helicopter must be present. This being the case then either the FIA were not in attendance or they were so they had full knowledge of the test.
Also it would appear that Pirelli's contract was so badly written that it did not prohibit in season testing but the concord does!
As for swapping tyres I thought the wheel rims had the nuts attached and they are handed i.e. left hand thread on one side right hand thread on other. So it might not be that easy to swap between sides?
It's all very interesting. Unless the FIA has an alternative tyre supplier then how on earth are they going to penalise Pirelli without them quitting? Merc 'may' have been naive (very doubtful) or they have an ace up their sleeves.
Bet it will take months to sort out though.
Cheers for all the posts, great read. That is why I joined. Thanks
First off do teams usually pack up completely including their huge hospitality suits on the Sunday? If not surely some other team members were around at the track on the Monday maybe Tuesday still packing up? Did they not see Merc still with garages in tact?
According to what I have read at any 'test' the FIA medical team and helicopter must be present. This being the case then either the FIA were not in attendance or they were so they had full knowledge of the test.
Also it would appear that Pirelli's contract was so badly written that it did not prohibit in season testing but the concord does!
As for swapping tyres I thought the wheel rims had the nuts attached and they are handed i.e. left hand thread on one side right hand thread on other. So it might not be that easy to swap between sides?
It's all very interesting. Unless the FIA has an alternative tyre supplier then how on earth are they going to penalise Pirelli without them quitting? Merc 'may' have been naive (very doubtful) or they have an ace up their sleeves.
Bet it will take months to sort out though.
Cheers for all the posts, great read. That is why I joined. Thanks
Welcome to the Forum ched999uk and some interesting thoughts to add to the already cloudy situation 
All the cars which I've worked on don't have anything like that, obviously I haven't worked on f1 cars so I don't know about them but I'd guess they don't have anything different
Yeah some very interesting points, though I don't think reversing the wheels would effect the the ability to thread the nut.
Others clearly knew about it though... It's a bit hard to put a thousand kilometers on an F1 car without somebody noticing, yet they almost did.
Others clearly knew about it though... It's a bit hard to put a thousand kilometers on an F1 car without somebody noticing, yet they almost did.
Could you imagine the fallout if a either Lewis or Nico won the world title, then this coming out...
*shudders*
*shudders*
Han Shot First
Well-Known Member
I think the FIA would sort it out before that happened. Then again, with the Toad running things, anything could happen.
Vatanen for President!!
Han Shot First
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Ched: you've raised a few points which warrant some clarification, so please indulge my attempt to shed some light.
[1] Teams usually make immediate efforts to leave the scene as quickly as possible, notwithstanding corporate hospitality (partying), which can delay the process until after Sunday night. And yes, members of other teams can sometimes be slow to leave.
[2] Medical teams are required to attend testing but have no interest in what is being tested. Neither are they required to report irregularities beyond their remit, even if they are aware of them – although of course, this would not prevent them doing so if they wished. More importantly, attendance from the FIA at any test is not required. Even if they were still there when the testing occurred, it does not mean that procedures applicable to race weekends are employed, since there is an assumption (right or wrong) that all parties know the rules (!?!). In particular, there is no scrutineering, so a car's specification and its components (including tyres) are not rigorously checked*.
[3] Yes, there would appear to be inconsistencies. I repeat my speculation that any vagueness in communication may have been convenient (perhaps with regard to future mitigation or defence in the event of being found out?) for one or more parties – which was my first response when the story broke.
[4] The teams are supplied with tyres but use their own wheels. Despite Pirelli technicians being 'supplied' to accompany each team, it is ultimately the team's decision to choose which wheel to put a tyre on. Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, so far as I know, there is no rule precluding this (ahem) rather unusual practice…
[5] Yes; it's difficult to see how the FIA may seek to penalise Pirelli. Even if a breach of contract can be proven against them, which I would posit as extremely difficult as well as potentially damaging to the image of F1, it would probably only involve a minor financial adjustment of terms. After all, they are 'only' a tyre supplier and are not subject to the same rules as competing race teams. Furthermore, as F1's sole supplier, it might be seen that they hold a rather strong hand, especially since, so far as I am aware, there is still no new contract for them and no other tyre supplier ready to jump in! In view of this, it would seem pointless to pursue Pirelli, even if they took advantage of a team's willingness to (ahem) 'help them out' (!).
[6] Yep! You can be pretty sure this will take some time to sort out… I'd estimate a couple of months unless convenient arrangements can be made behind closed doors – which would now seem rather unlikely…
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*I would be surprised if this 'culture of trust' is not – along with matters of communication – at least reviewed in the aftermath of this debacle.
Hmm, cheers Forza, but I don't know what to think about "sizes more like road tyres". F1 tyres look nothing like road tyres, and if you were to change them to look more like road tyres, you're going to lose an awful lot of mechanical grip, and completely change the way the cars handle I suspect. F1 always has to be the pinnacle, and broadly as fast as previous seasons, so you'd have to recover that grip somehow to keep cornering speeds up. Surely that would have to come from aero, which would then make overtaking harder as you couldn't get as close?
As I've said before (and I've probably nicked this from Cosi, AG or someone else at some point), I'd like to see a massive shift in the cars so a lot more of the grip comes from the tyres, and less from the aero. Let's push tyre development to the edge of what's possible, to have super grippy, long lived tyres, with degradation that allows drivers to push, or try alternate strategies, not different shades of slow. With much more mechanical grip, you reduce the amount of allowed aero, so the "dirty air" behind cars is reduced, allowing drivers to follow each other more closely and making "natural" overtaking easier, whether you have DRS or not.
As I've said before (and I've probably nicked this from Cosi, AG or someone else at some point), I'd like to see a massive shift in the cars so a lot more of the grip comes from the tyres, and less from the aero. Let's push tyre development to the edge of what's possible, to have super grippy, long lived tyres, with degradation that allows drivers to push, or try alternate strategies, not different shades of slow. With much more mechanical grip, you reduce the amount of allowed aero, so the "dirty air" behind cars is reduced, allowing drivers to follow each other more closely and making "natural" overtaking easier, whether you have DRS or not.
I believe the development compounds will again be made available in Canada, although appreciate this doesn't equate to the run time Mercedes had in Barcelona.
Having said that it is evident to me there are testing opportunities available to the other teams. It is also evident teams have been talking to each other prior to Mercedes test as to how to approach testing in a unified way. Some utilised the opportunity to make themselves available should Pirelli need to engage the field at a later time, which we now see has happened.
For me, I don't see any material difference between the Mercedes test or the Ferrari test. A test in season is a test in season.
As has already been mentioned Ferrari did their test, which although didn't utilise a current driver, breaks the sporting regulations in the same way as Mercedes. During the weekend I noted that the protest submitted seemed to over use the desire to seek clarification. Now we see why. A number of teams, including Red Bull and Lotus were contemplating engaging in these tests too, just not necessarily in a 2013 car. But does a 2013 or 2012 car really matter?
From the perspective of advantage, yes...to a point. But let’s take a different perspective; Pirelli.
They successfully won the tender to supply tyres. Pirelli have responsibilities to undertake as part of their contract with the FIA but also to themselves. Pirelli is important to Pirelli above the FIA. Then there is safety.
Tyres are supposed to keep cars on the road and degrade gracefully. We know the latter has been designed out of the compounds here as a requirement for the viewing and racing spectacle. However through the degradation there is still the ability for the driver to exert skills or the strategists to push the grip limits.
What neither party can control is the clear unreliability of these tyres to maintain their structural integrity in a seemingly random way. Pirelli has to address this. If I were on the Board, I'd authorise all avenues to be investigated.
Prior to this season, Pirelli had another problem. It can't do meaningful tests. It's being asked to develop but with limited run time. It has now choice but to exercise the options available to them in the contract, which we are seeing they have done.
If the F1 teams as a cohesive group cannot agree to a solution, why should they not just progress with singular parties willing to assist? From hereonin, Pirelli are permitted to proceed.
But what about the sporting regulations? These have been breached? It would seem so, but does that really mean anything? The evidence and information coming out now suggests that there are ways and means of working around this particular article which behind the scenes most teams were negotiating on anyway. Further, which agreement or clause supersedes another? With the discussions all parties have undertaken, despite these rules, it looks like the governance of the sport and compliances of the rules in such complex areas breaks down.
If Indianapolis is anything to go by - Safety rules.
Also worth observing the FIA doesn't have any tenders out for the supply of tyres for the next F1 season. One thing is for sure, you don't get F1 without tyres. They're pushing their luck.
What I don't get is how we can be in this current debacle anyway. Pirelli requested additional testing and their request was granted with the condition that the test be offered to all teams.
So Pirelli now have the green light to test and the opportunity to get a ton of data, yet the test goes ahead only with Mercedes. Why on earth would they opt to do that when they can test legitimately with a full compliment of cars? It just doesn't stack up at all.
Clearly everybody involved wanted it hush, hush since drivers, team personnel and Pirelli were hardly advertising it on social media and we didn't get a pic of Roscoe with his new rubber.
Out of curiosity, what rubber comes on a brand-new Merc?
So Pirelli now have the green light to test and the opportunity to get a ton of data, yet the test goes ahead only with Mercedes. Why on earth would they opt to do that when they can test legitimately with a full compliment of cars? It just doesn't stack up at all.
Clearly everybody involved wanted it hush, hush since drivers, team personnel and Pirelli were hardly advertising it on social media and we didn't get a pic of Roscoe with his new rubber.
Out of curiosity, what rubber comes on a brand-new Merc?
Thanks for that, Forza. I'd heard a little rumour of that activity too.
However, right now, I'd be amazed if Michelin's tweet-polling is anything other than milking the moment. In all probability, it was suggested by a member of one of their marketing teams; after all, it is a golden opportunity for another tyre manufacturer to exploit Pirelli's current position and surely a most auspicious moment to conduct valuable market research. Although so far as I am aware there is still no contract in place for next year, I am pretty sure Pirelli will see the need to address partly self-inflicted wounds*. If they leave without demonstrating that they can get it right, they could do serious long-term harm to their public image, so I still expect Pirelli to be F1's tyre supplier in 2014…
…But I now have doubts for 2015 and beyond. This would also seem a realistic time-frame for Michelin, Bridgestone, Avon, Goodyear, et al, to start making plans if one of them feels they'd want 'in'. It is also possible that they could get in under what could be very advantageous circumstances. We should also remember that despite this latest debacle, F1 is still by far the most influential arena to market sports-related goods – especially tyres which carry their own advertising space! And for this reason, F1 should not find it difficult to replace Pirelli if needed, so long as they back-down on making unreasonable demands!
However, right now, I'd be amazed if Michelin's tweet-polling is anything other than milking the moment. In all probability, it was suggested by a member of one of their marketing teams; after all, it is a golden opportunity for another tyre manufacturer to exploit Pirelli's current position and surely a most auspicious moment to conduct valuable market research. Although so far as I am aware there is still no contract in place for next year, I am pretty sure Pirelli will see the need to address partly self-inflicted wounds*. If they leave without demonstrating that they can get it right, they could do serious long-term harm to their public image, so I still expect Pirelli to be F1's tyre supplier in 2014…
…But I now have doubts for 2015 and beyond. This would also seem a realistic time-frame for Michelin, Bridgestone, Avon, Goodyear, et al, to start making plans if one of them feels they'd want 'in'. It is also possible that they could get in under what could be very advantageous circumstances. We should also remember that despite this latest debacle, F1 is still by far the most influential arena to market sports-related goods – especially tyres which carry their own advertising space! And for this reason, F1 should not find it difficult to replace Pirelli if needed, so long as they back-down on making unreasonable demands!
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*I say "partly" because Pirelli appear to have bent over backwards to provide what was asked for, and done so without defending themselves by illustrating the dangers of what was being asked of them. The old adage, 'be careful what you ask for' is very applicable to the FIA, as well as F1's action hungry, impatient audience – many of whom were oblivious to the concerns a few were trying to express (myself included).- - o0o- - -o0o- -
[Edit]: I wrote the above without reading the latest contribution from our new member, BCS, above. In case you're wondering Brian, that's why this post did not refer to yours, until now. And another great contribution it is too. Once again, I've given 'Rep' for it (added to your reputation – not that I understand how it works; but hey, who cares…
cosicave:4812351 said:
They were asked to make something to paper over the cracks of modern F1... then asked to take it even further, which is now at the point where they could be extremely dangerous. The tyres can seem to fail in unusual manners and are highly unpredictable. Hopefully they won't be the cause of any injury.
I've been against these tyres since day one (not Pirelli's fault) and mostly been in the minority due to the perceived excitement that they have brought. Too me, the tyres (and DRS) just gloss over other issues and are not a long term fix. I really think that they need to start looking at opening up some technical regs and allowing some innovation again. The cars are designed in such tight parameters with any technical advance stripped at the first opportunity, and then they wonder why we have processional racing without donuts for tyres and DRS.
Seems to be a growing grumble about Ferrari's own Pirelli test:
Ferrari downplays relevance of own Pirelli test
Ferrari has downplayed the relevance of a tyre test it conducted on Pirelli’s behalf at Barcelona between the Bahrain and Spanish GPs.
Ferrari has justified its involvement in the tyre test in the same way as Mercedes has, in that it was simply responding to a request Pirelli made in a letter to the teams in March last year. As Pirelli’s Paul Hembery told this blog in Monaco, “some replied, some didn’t.”
The key point is that Ferrari ran a 2011 car on behalf of Pirelli, in stark contrast to the later Mercedes test at the same venue with a 2013 machine. Thus there is no question of Ferrari having contravened the FIA sporting regulations by running a current car.....
.....However, while Ferrari clearly has not broken any FIA rules, rival teams were not aware of the test at the time, and have been somewhat surprised as details have gradually emerged – and thus the issue is more one of a lack of transparency from Pirelli, and as with the Mercedes test, its contractual commitment to the FIA to ensure sporting equity.
Until the Ferrari test Pirelli had conducted its development with a 2010 Renault, run by the Lotus show car team, but with other teams kept fully in the loop about what was going on. They were given clear guarantees that Lotus would not gain any advantage, and sent reports of the test results.
This was not the case with either the Ferrari or Mercedes tests.
What Ferrari have done is entirely legal so they aren't in trouble per say, but teams are pretty miffed by the secrecy and the fact Ferrari were chosen and they weren't.
Ferrari downplays relevance of own Pirelli test
Ferrari has downplayed the relevance of a tyre test it conducted on Pirelli’s behalf at Barcelona between the Bahrain and Spanish GPs.
Ferrari has justified its involvement in the tyre test in the same way as Mercedes has, in that it was simply responding to a request Pirelli made in a letter to the teams in March last year. As Pirelli’s Paul Hembery told this blog in Monaco, “some replied, some didn’t.”
The key point is that Ferrari ran a 2011 car on behalf of Pirelli, in stark contrast to the later Mercedes test at the same venue with a 2013 machine. Thus there is no question of Ferrari having contravened the FIA sporting regulations by running a current car.....
.....However, while Ferrari clearly has not broken any FIA rules, rival teams were not aware of the test at the time, and have been somewhat surprised as details have gradually emerged – and thus the issue is more one of a lack of transparency from Pirelli, and as with the Mercedes test, its contractual commitment to the FIA to ensure sporting equity.
Until the Ferrari test Pirelli had conducted its development with a 2010 Renault, run by the Lotus show car team, but with other teams kept fully in the loop about what was going on. They were given clear guarantees that Lotus would not gain any advantage, and sent reports of the test results.
This was not the case with either the Ferrari or Mercedes tests.
What Ferrari have done is entirely legal so they aren't in trouble per say, but teams are pretty miffed by the secrecy and the fact Ferrari were chosen and they weren't.