Article

[fran-MLs little camera]

Everyone makes mistakes...if defenders didn't, no one would score. It's how often a player makes a mistake that matters and whether the rest of his game makes up for it. Not saying Wanyama is perfect, but Mauricio obviously thinks he is the best we've got at the moment.

 

[rabbitspectrum]

Well sorry but I think Clyne should have followed Evra. The alternative is Wanyama running all the way around Clyne and the player he is marking, which inevitably allows Evra to get almost as much space as he did with nobody following him. That's why every team does this, because it's simply the only way to ensure the overlapping player doesn't get as much space.

If they traded places the player who was in possession would have more space which is far more dangerous than an overlapping player having minimally more space.

 

[Mikey]

If they traded places the player who was in possession would have more space which is far more dangerous than an overlapping player having minimally more space.

You must log in or register to see images

Forgive the fuzzy image, but the video was not great quality, but I think this frame is the best to see both the two United player's intents and the two key Saints player's positions. Firstly, the intents, Januzaj is clearly intending to go inside whilst Evra is looking to run towards the by-line as he eventually did. Meanwhile Clyne is positioned to protect a run down the line, he is a yard further towards the by-line than Januzaj with his strong foot firmly pointing in that direction and he has his back to the direction Januzaj wants to go. From this position he can shut out anything wide but has a bad starting position and would lose a yard if Januzaj were to knock it inside. Wanyama is occupying exactly the area Januzaj wants to get to, and with him in that position (And Adam also closing) the only thing Januzaj could do if he came inside without creating a Ribery-like moment of skill would be pass backwards or cut back outside. The only other option he would have would be if Clyne were to leave his position he could try and cross the ball, which our two CBs have perfect positions to clear, or lastly to follow Evra down the line which would just create a traffic jam. So all options are covered except from Evra's fateful overlap, which Clyne has both the best position and skillset to cover. He clearly from there already has Evra in his sight-line and has the perfect position to immediately close out any pass to him, with him having a three yard headstart and great closing speed thus being the ideal man to track that run. Phew, that would have been much easier with one of Gary Neville's fancy mega touchpads.

So there's my explanation, if that's being a Wanyama apologist I... apologise.

 

[Joe!]

Mikey wins my approval in this debate.

 

[TheSecondStain]

You must log in or register to see images

Forgive the fuzzy image, but the video was not great quality, but I think this frame is the best to see both the two United player's intents and the two key Saints player's positions. Firstly, the intents, Januzaj is clearly intending to go inside whilst Evra is looking to run towards the by-line as he eventually did. Meanwhile Clyne is positioned to protect a run down the line, he is a yard further towards the by-line than Januzaj with his strong foot firmly pointing in that direction and he has his back to the direction Januzaj wants to go. From this position he can shut out anything wide but has a bad starting position and would lose a yard if Januzaj were to knock it inside. Wanyama is occupying exactly the area Januzaj wants to get to, and with him in that position (And Adam also closing) the only thing Januzaj could do if he came inside without creating a Ribery-like moment of skill would be pass backwards or cut back outside. The only other option he would have would be if Clyne were to leave his position he could try and cross the ball, which our two CBs have perfect positions to clear, or lastly to follow Evra down the line which would just create a traffic jam. So all options are covered except from Evra's fateful overlap, which Clyne has both the best position and skillset to cover. He clearly from there already has Evra in his sight-line and has the perfect position to immediately close out any pass to him, with him having a three yard headstart and great closing speed thus being the ideal man to track that run. Phew, that would have been much easier with one of Gary Neville's fancy mega touchpads.

So there's my explanation, if that's being a Wanyama apologist I... apologise.

Well worked out explanation.

 

[rabbitspectrum]

You must log in or register to see images

Forgive the fuzzy image, but the video was not great quality, but I think this frame is the best to see both the two United player's intents and the two key Saints player's positions. Firstly, the intents, Januzaj is clearly intending to go inside whilst Evra is looking to run towards the by-line as he eventually did. Meanwhile Clyne is positioned to protect a run down the line, he is a yard further towards the by-line than Januzaj with his strong foot firmly pointing in that direction and he has his back to the direction Januzaj wants to go. From this position he can shut out anything wide but has a bad starting position and would lose a yard if Januzaj were to knock it inside. Wanyama is occupying exactly the area Januzaj wants to get to, and with him in that position (And Adam also closing) the only thing Januzaj could do if he came inside without creating a Ribery-like moment of skill would be pass backwards or cut back outside. The only other option he would have would be if Clyne were to leave his position he could try and cross the ball, which our two CBs have perfect positions to clear, or lastly to follow Evra down the line which would just create a traffic jam. So all options are covered except from Evra's fateful overlap, which Clyne has both the best position and skillset to cover. He clearly from there already has Evra in his sight-line and has the perfect position to immediately close out any pass to him, with him having a three yard headstart and great closing speed thus being the ideal man to track that run. Phew, that would have been much easier with one of Gary Neville's fancy mega touchpads.

So there's my explanation, if that's being a Wanyama apologist I... apologise.

That makes a lot of sense and if there was good communication it would work out well. However in practice the transition has to be very well timed and communicated with the risk far out waying the reward. I would back clyne to cover junsaj on the inside a danger that is lessened as it is his weaker foot, and wanyama has momentum which should mean he will get to evra quicker than clyne anyway - which is the crucial point I feel. I don't want to sound patronising but thank you for taking the time to analyse that and I can see the merits of the tactic.

Ideally the right winger would track evra, and wanyama would fill the gap between fullback and centreback, something I don't think he does well but thats another argument entirely.

 

[Mikey]

Mikey wins my approval in this debate.

Your approval is all I want in life, Joe.

That makes a lot of sense and if there was good communication it would work out well. However in practice the transition has to be very well timed and communicated with the risk far out waying the reward. I would back clyne to cover junsaj on the inside a danger that is lessened as it is his weaker foot, and wanyama has momentum which should mean he will get to evra quicker than clyne anyway - which is the crucial point I feel. I don't want to sound patronising but thank you for taking the time to analyse that and I can see the merits of the tactic.

Ideally the right winger would track evra, and wanyama would fill the gap between fullback and centreback, something I don't think he does well but thats another argument entirely.

Indeed, communication is the key and where it broke down in this instance, both players were entirely entitled to believe they had 'their' man, but unfortunately that was the same person. I think as I covered before and you seem to agree for the most part, if the switch-off was executed it would have left us in the optimal defensive position, but realistically either Saints man could have covered which ever United attacker they chose to, but thin air wasn't going to cover Evra. Excellent communication and timing is as you say exactly what is required, but I think Mauricio is aiming for no less than that and mostly achieving it, but little slip-ups are bound to occur especially between young players still forging a playing relationship with each other.

 

[rabbitspectrum]

I remember reading that clyne was very quiet on the pitch and had to be encourage to communicate better. In this instance it was wanyamas responsibility though in this case

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Indeed, communication is the key and where it broke down in this instance, both players were entirely entitled to believe they had 'their' man, but unfortunately that was the same person. I think as I covered before and you seem to agree for the most part, if the switch-off was executed it would have left us in the optimal defensive position, but realistically either Saints man could have covered which ever United attacker they chose to, but thin air wasn't going to cover Evra.

Agree.

But look at the picture again. Wanyama can see Clyne, but Clyne can't easily see Wanyama. It's also hard for Clyne to watch the ball AND watch another player making a run at the same time.

Optimally, it would have worked out better with Clyne on Evra. But at some point it became a busted play and Wanyama should have been alert to that happening. He is in the better position to see the play develop and, as a last resort to come and cut off the angle as he has more distance to see and react and is closer to the center of the pitch. Once Evra beats Clyne, he's done.

So Wanyama in that case is the free safety/centerfielder in that play. Clyne *should* listen to him because he can see the developing play better and the switch is tactically the better option. But if Clyne doesn't hear him or doesn't react, Wanyama needs to be cognizant of being the safety valve. As it was, Schneiderlin became the safety valve which is (as Neville) alluded to, a head's up play and part of the duty of a defensive midfielder in that situation.

As you said, the major problem with that play wasn't who covered Evra, but that noone covered Evra at all. Wanyama was in the better position to react and cover Clyne's man/area. It would have been understandable had that moment of confusion resulted in Wanyama reaching Evra a little late. But it should never have come down to Wanyama standing right behind Clyne doing nothing. You can't assume that a guy who can't see you and is looking at a possible 2 v 1 is going to react properly.

Perhaps that explanation would have made more sense if I had refrained from using esoteric and not completely analogous American sports as illustration. But hopefully you get the point. In a perfect world, Wanyama made the right tactical call. But in my opinion, he failed in his duty to adjust to the situation once things started going wrong. I wouldn't call it a horrendously boneheaded play or anything, but still Wanyama made a mistake on that play.

At any rate, the bigger error was the fact that Saints had numbers in the box but no one covered the glaringly obvious striker right in the middle of the area. It looks like Lovren was guilty of a bit of ball-watching there and got to his man a little late.

 

[Clem Fandango]

You must log in or register to see images

Forgive the fuzzy image, but the video was not great quality, but I think this frame is the best to see both the two United player's intents and the two key Saints player's positions. Firstly, the intents, Januzaj is clearly intending to go inside whilst Evra is looking to run towards the by-line as he eventually did. Meanwhile Clyne is positioned to protect a run down the line, he is a yard further towards the by-line than Januzaj with his strong foot firmly pointing in that direction and he has his back to the direction Januzaj wants to go. From this position he can shut out anything wide but has a bad starting position and would lose a yard if Januzaj were to knock it inside. Wanyama is occupying exactly the area Januzaj wants to get to, and with him in that position (And Adam also closing) the only thing Januzaj could do if he came inside without creating a Ribery-like moment of skill would be pass backwards or cut back outside. The only other option he would have would be if Clyne were to leave his position he could try and cross the ball, which our two CBs have perfect positions to clear, or lastly to follow Evra down the line which would just create a traffic jam. So all options are covered except from Evra's fateful overlap, which Clyne has both the best position and skillset to cover. He clearly from there already has Evra in his sight-line and has the perfect position to immediately close out any pass to him, with him having a three yard headstart and great closing speed thus being the ideal man to track that run. Phew, that would have been much easier with one of Gary Neville's fancy mega touchpads.

So there's my explanation, if that's being a Wanyama apologist I... apologise.

You're being a Wanyama apologist. Let's look at this in much simpler terms (football is a simple game after all).

Clyne is watching the man in posession. What's Wanyama doing? He's watching Clyne watch the man in posession. He also watchs Evra make the obvious run. It's so obvious, instead of tracking the run, he points him out for Clyne, who is infront of him and can't see him point.

I find it hard to believe you all seriously find Clyne at fault in this play.

 

[TheSecondStain]

Nobody is at fault. They are both doing the right thing. They are doubling up on the person with the ball. The fact that the other player overlaps and receives the ball is dealt with as Lovren comes across and impedes him. Schneiderlin takes up the job of marking Rooney and the attack comes to nothing. End.

 

[pass the football]

I find it hard to believe you all seriously find Clyne at fault in this play.

This is a standard play used by every team, it's one of the fundamentals of football at that level. Every full-back should know they have to track the overlapping runner. Clyne is an excellent player, but he was at fault on this occasion.

 

[Dan]

You're being a Wanyama apologist. Let's look at this in much simpler terms (football is a simple game after all).

Clyne is watching the man in posession. What's Wanyama doing? He's watching Clyne watch the man in posession. He also watchs Evra make the obvious run. It's so obvious, instead of tracking the run, he points him out for Clyne, who is infront of him and can't see him point.

I find it hard to believe you all seriously find Clyne at fault in this play.

Wanyama probably has a mouth and Clyne probably has ears. Obviously as everyone is pointing out, communication is the problem here, but optimally the play would have developed exactly as Mikey said. If Wanyama didn't shout at Clyne because he's a moron who thinks Clyne can see out the back of his head, that's his problem. If Clyne ignored Wanyama because he was busy focusing on how pretty Januzaj is, then that's his problem. It's just been made very clear by Mikey how a team would best defend this play, but we'd have to speculate on what happened in terms of communication. Clearly, there was something wrong, but in pure footballing terms, it's Clyne's fault.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

Personally I blame Evra. If only the opposition wouldn't keep forgetting their parts

 

[Clem Fandango]

This is a standard play used by every team, it's one of the fundamentals of football at that level. Every full-back should know they have to track the overlapping runner.

This may be true, but we weren't sitting off them, it was a quick attack and Clyne couldn't track the overlapping runner because he had commited himself to the tackle. I just think VW should have shown a little more forsight.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Nobody is at fault. They are both doing the right thing. They are doubling up on the person with the ball. The fact that the other player overlaps and receives the ball is dealt with as Lovren comes across and impedes him. Schneiderlin takes up the job of marking Rooney and the attack comes to nothing. End.

Agree 100%. I can't believe you're all making so much of an attack that didn't result in a goal being scored. Wouldn't it be more productive to analyse who was at fault (if anyone) for Van Persie's goal? You could argue that Boruc, having made the save, and seeing Fonte chasing the rebound, should have got back in goal ASAP, instead of leaving it to Lovren. I'm not criticising Boruc for what he did, it was obviously instinctive, but if he had tracked back he might have saved the RVP shot.

 

[Lovelocum]

Wanyama needs to be running towards the 2 united players- either to close down Januzaj or to track Evra to the byline. He doesn't look as though he is moving quickly (!). Clyne needs to stay where he is until wany is there to guard the edge of the box, otherwise he lets Januzaj have a few yards of space in a dangerous position. In my opinion both players make minor mistakes. But who is out of the picture that we can't see? If wany was dragged over sooner, letting clyne run with evra, he may have left space for a player to run into and Januzaj given another option. If this would have happened we would all be blaming Vic (remonds me of Guly defending at fratton park).

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Ultimately as Fran said some posts ago, players will make mistakes, that's how goals are scored (again as Chilco pointed out). The key thing here is do players learn from the mistakes they make? We're talking about two 22 year olds here. I think we need to build them a little headroom for improvement. If we're all here analysing a move that could have led to an opposition goal, you can bet that the coaching staff at the club will be too.

What's important isn't necessarily apportioning blame or castigating a player for making a mistake, it's watching to see if the mistakes are repeated time after time (a little like poor old Danny Fox). At that point clearly the requirement outweighs the ability in that given situation, though even then it doesn't make them a poor player, it just means they have trouble adapting to that aspect of play which may be counterbalanced in a team environment by what else they give to the overall package.

It's not being a Clyne or Wanyama 'apologist' to say that - it's just pointing out that we're a long way from needing to panic about a couple of 22 year olds with huge potential, who form part of the second meanest defence in Europe.

 

[Clem Fandango]

Wanyama needs to be running towards the 2 united players- either to close down Januzaj or to track Evra to the byline. He doesn't look as though he is moving quickly (!). Clyne needs to stay where he is until wany is there to guard the edge of the box, otherwise he lets Januzaj have a few yards of space in a dangerous position. In my opinion both players make minor mistakes. But who is out of the picture that we can't see? If wany was dragged over sooner, letting clyne run with evra, he may have left space for a player to run into and Januzaj given another option. If this would have happened we would all be blaming Vic (remonds me of Guly defending at fratton park).

Is this what we're calling him now?

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

I think there was just enough time initially to have made the switch had Clyne heard and reacted. The problem was that Clyne shouted at Wanyama to take Evra at the same time Wanyama yelled for Clyne to do the same. You can see it in the video, where they both start gesticulating. It was a tricky play either way.

Boruc was pretty much left for dead when that ball rebounded more-or-less perfectly to Van Persie. It's hard to find a fault on that play, you just have to credit Januzaj with making a perfect pass. Yes, I know Rooney was technically offside by like 6 inches but in my opinion it didn't make a difference.

Have to say Januzaj looked like the real deal in that game. I was pretty impressed by him, but also impressed by the way Clyne kept him (mostly) contained. That was one of a couple really good battles.