Arkle Vs Kauto Star

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woolcombe-folly007

woolcombe-folly007

Well-Known Member
May 9, 2011
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I thought I would replica Waywards thread on Shergar Vs Frankel. I been watching both videos of Arkle and Kauto. Who is going to be the best all time great.








[video=youtube;7PDNPTJs4PU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDNPTJs4PU[/video]
[video=youtube;Xh0BKgmx0VM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh0BKgmx0VM[/video]
 
I have had my say on a number of websites including here, but since you ask ......... :)

Having seen both horses, I thought it then and still think it now - Arkle's feats were simply awesome. To break the track record at Sandown, carrying 12 stone 7lb, giving over a stone to the (arguably) second best horse of the decade, in Mill House and 2 stone to the rest is unimagineable.

It can't happen these days of course, handicaps have been re-graded and trainers and owners are now for less cavalier with their good horses. It decimated the Gold Cup of course - what is the point taking on a giant at level weights who beats good horses giving them stones in concession!

But ultimately, heroes are about current generations - Kauto is for now, Arkle is for oldies like me :)
 
Nobody will ever know... Its all based on opinion!

Since the days of Arkle the standard of training as improved massively, People like Martin Pipe changed the way horses were trained and with the talented French horses crossing the channel every year the standard as been maintained and the competetion fierce year in year out. Kauto Star is still going at the age of 12 and as broken records that may never be broke, He's seen off young pretenders year in year out hes beaten former Champions and for Me that sets him apart from the two. Its took long enough for someone to catch Dessie but to win 5 King Georges is something very special. You cannot deny Arkle his greatness, He gave lumps of weight away to good horses at the time and to win one Cheltenham Gold Cup is difficult to but win 3 is a feat that is rarely matched...

After all is said and done, Kauto Star is one of the very best steeplechasers of all time along with Arkle but I think were forgetting another here in Dessie. To Me he is up there with Kauto Star, He was probably even more versatile than Kauto Star and that takes some doing and his CV is one of the best theres been or will ever be. Like I said its all a matter of opinion!
 
This is like going onto the football board's and asking who was better, Diego Maradona or David Beckham. There realy is no contest whatsoever. Arkle was in a completely different league to Kauto Star.

Kauto Star has been a great horse, but he has been found out on a few occasions. In his first Gold Cup win, he was 3 lenghs clear of a 149 rated handicapper, and in his second Gold Cup win, he won by default, after Denman had been out most of the season with a heart problem, and was knowere near 100%. The facts prove aswell that Denman was better than KS, with a 3-1 head to head record, KS only getting the 1 win, when Denman was half fit. It's funny though because had Denman not existed, I suppose KS's legacy may have been up there with Arkle's, and his defeat's to IC and LR in the CGC, could have been put down to age, but Denman beat him in 08, fair and square.

Mill House was Arkle's biggest rival, and despite losing to him in the Hennessy at 6 Arkle beat his great rival on 4 occasions afterwards, and who could ignore him giving Mill House a stone and a beating at Sandown, breaking the track record with 12'7 on his back, a track record that still stands today, despite the fact nothing else carries anything more than 11'12 these days.

So there is always the debate as to wether KS was better than Denman, he may have been more versatile, but they only ever met in the Gold Cup and it is a fact, that Denman proved superior. Where as Arkle was head and shoulders above Mill House. Could you honestly imagine KS giving Denman a stone and a beating, like
Arkle did to MH. No chance!

A paragraph ive copied from wiki

Besides winning three consecutive Cheltenham Gold Cups (1964, 1965, 1966) and the 1965 King George VI Chase Arkle triumphed in a number of important handicap chases including the 1964 Irish Grand National (under 12-0), the 1964 and 1965 Hennessy Gold Cups (both times under 12-7), the 1965 Gallagher Gold Cup (conceding 16*lb to Mill House and breaking the course record by 17 seconds), and the 1965 Whitbread Gold Cup (under 12-7). In the 1966 Hennessy he only failed by half a length to give Stalbridge Colonist 35*lb. The scale of the task Arkle faced is shown by the winner coming second and third in the two following Cheltenham Gold Cups, while in third place was the future 1969 Gold Cup winner, What A Myth.

Do people not realise just how amazing Arkle must have been to conceed 35 pounds, to horse's good enough to win and place in Gold Cups. Could you imagine KS conceeding that sort of weight to Long Run, Denman? Imperial Commander,
or even Exotic Dancer. Kauto Star couldnt even conceed a stone to Monets Garden, yet Arkle was beating future Gold Cup winners, conceeding almost treble that amount.

Kauto Star has been a great horse, but I genuinely believe that Arkle would have beaten Kauto Star very very easily. To get an evenly matched race you would probably have to have Arkle on 12'7 and KS on 11'0:biggrin:
 
I'm not even sure Kauto is the greatest horse of his generation and personally I think they're is a strong case to argue Denman was at least his equal, if not his superior. Back to this debate though, the Maradona V Beckham metaphor is stupid. If you were using a football metaphor Maradona V Messi is a much better example. To compare Kauto.s standing in the equine world to Beckhams in the football world (even at his peak) is an insult to one of the greatest horses of all time.
Do his achievements match Arkle, of course they do, he's won 5 King Georges and 2 Gold cups. Would he have beaten him off levels? Who knows but I don't think they're is a horse in history that beats KS giving him lumps of weight.
 
What makes a great champion? Does longevity count? If a horse can't stand the rigours of racing and can only win a about half the G1 races of another animal, can he really be ranked the greater horse? Fragility has to be factored in somewhere.
 
Cyclonic.....If you are referring to KSs longevity, then I disagree. Kauto Star has been wrapped in cotton wool in comparison to Arkle. KS runs 3-4 times a year at level weights, hardly a gruelling schedule, is it? Were as in comparison Arkle ran 6-7 times a year, and in only one of those races, the Gold Cup he would be at level weights with his opponents. The rest of the time he would be lumping around 12'7 with all his opponents carrying 2 stone and upwards less.

Ruby Walsh boasts about the toughness of KS, and the fact he is still racing at 12, which id assume is in some way aimed at Arkle, and trying to rate KS above him. But if you look at the actual facts, Arkle was a far tougher horse than KS:biggrin:
 
Totally agree Cyc.
The greatest racehorse ever to run was infact Monsignor but injury cruelly denied this one emulating Golden Miller and racking up 5 Gold Cup wins...
 
King Shergar said:
Cyclonic.....If you are referring to KSs longevity, then I disagree. Kauto Star has been wrapped in cotton wool in comparison to Arkle. KS runs 3-4 times a year at level weights, hardly a gruelling schedule, is it? Were as in comparison Arkle ran 6-7 times a year, and in only one of those races, the Gold Cup he would be at level weights with his opponents. The rest of the time he would be lumping around 12'7 with all his opponents carrying 2 stone and upwards less.

Ruby Walsh boasts about the toughness of KS, and the fact he is still racing at 12, which id assume is in some way aimed at Arkle, and trying to rate KS above him. But if you look at the actual facts, Arkle was a far tougher horse than KS:biggrin:
Click to expand...

I was actually referring to Denman. KS.
 
I hoped I'd never see this debate again.
Unfortunately in racehorse terms Arkle was a freak. I'm afraid he'd give Kauto Star a stone and a good beating.
Let us just enjoy KS for what he is 'a damned good racehorse' and one of the best.

Longevity doesn't come into it nor does soundness. Arkle ran far more than horses do today and he had a career ending injury. Maybe he wouldn't have been as good the next Cheltenham but he'd have to have deteriorated about 28lbs not to have won a further Gold Cup.
 
The Shergar / Frankel thread I can see a debate ......Kauto Star v Arkle sorry you shouldn't even be mentioning Kauto in the same breath....its an insult to Arkle...he'll never be surpassed.
 
Cyc .....Well you could say that, but the heart issue, was something he was born with, and it only came to light after he had some tough races. Denman couldn't realy do alot about a problem he was born with.

I believe it's partly down to luck, some horse's will be lucky with the cards they are delt, others won't be. One thing is for sure you won't see a horse try harder than Denman, he would run himself into the ground for the cause:biggrin:
 
The fact is that we will never know. That is the only possible conclusion, we simply don't know who is better. It is absolutely impossible to state otherwise. We can have our own opinions but that is it.

Arkle is quite clearly a wonderful animal. His exploits will never be matched. I am far too young to remember him racing (only 21 now!) so can only base my opinion of him on video evidence and the extensive literature about him.

Kauto Star is clearly a wonderful animal. His exploits will never be matched. Luckily I have enjoyed Kauto Star's career in full so am able to base my opinion of him on both visual and video evidence, and the extensive literature about him.

They are both great horses and should be celebrated in their own right. Arkle sets the bench mark by which all horses will be judged and the very fact that Kauto Star has earned the right to be compared to him is an honour in itself. He is the best since Arkle in my opinion, but is he better than Arkle? Their achievements are so different which only complicates matters. Arkle never won a 2m Grade 1 (or equivalent), Kauto Star has never lugged huge weights in handicaps. Arkle didn't last as long as Kauto Star, Kauto Star didn't run as often as Arkle. The differences and endless and the similarity is that they are both brilliant in their different ways.

Whatever your opinion the most important thing is to celebrate the great horses that we have the pleasure to enjoy.
 
I suppose you could never be 100% certain that Pele was a more talented footballer than Gary Neville, having played in different eras:biggrin:
 
"Whatever your opinion the most important thing is to celebrate the great horses that we have the pleasure to enjoy"

Well said Zen <ok>

But it's funny how opinions change. At the time, I, along with most English race fans HATED Arkle, for what he did to our Champion, Mill House, and watched every renewal in the hope that MH would give the Irish upstart the thrashing he deserved! (despite them both being Irish bred - details can be overlooked, where patriotism is concerned!) Then time intervenes, and you come to realise what a phenomenon you were witnessing, but didn't appreciate at the time :)
 
Got a bit of an insight into this fame thing today. Slightly off topic, but in the cricket today in Oz where Aust played india, Michael Clarke retired not out 300 odd. The tv channel then took a poll of 3 great kocks at the SCG, Lara, Steve Waugh and Clarke. Lara's legendary innings only polled 11pc. Clarkes innings scored two thirds of the votes...because it was fresh in the mind. same with todays horses compared to those of the past, most of the time. Arkle stood out. But is Kauto the best, or Frankel for that matter? The youngers of today tend to think so.
 
Bustino75 said:
I hoped I'd never see this debate again.
Unfortunately in racehorse terms Arkle was a freak. I'm afraid he'd give Kauto Star a stone and a good beating.
Let us just enjoy KS for what he is 'a damned good racehorse' and one of the best.

Longevity doesn't come into it nor does soundness. Arkle ran far more than horses do today and he had a career ending injury. Maybe he wouldn't have been as good the next Cheltenham but he'd have to have deteriorated about 28lbs not to have won a further Gold Cup.
Click to expand...

That's confirmed then, Monsignors place as the best NH racehorse in history.....
 
Or maybe Golden Cygnet. He looked out of the ordinary from what I've seen.

Edit: I should add that I do think that longevity does come into it.
 
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