Are we making progress??

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The difference between us this year and last, our progress can be described in 1 word:

Mané.


To me it's that simple. Yeah, we've improved in a few areas and regressed in a few others. A few players nearer to prime and a few players further past it. Everything else tends to cancel out.

The one big change is Mané, with him we're a much better team than without. Seeing as he picks up a few injuries, it would be wise to pick up a second player with similar qualities. We need a powerful pacey Mané like player to carry on performing when he's out. We're dull and listless without him.

Tbh he probably is the major player addition. But Matip is good too.

Every time either is out it shows.

However several positional changes for players and some progress in defending has occurred too.

I agree kane is a transformational player for us. I just think Matip is similar

 

[Milk not bear jizz]

Tbh he probably is the major player addition. But Matip is good too.

Every time either is out it shows.

However several positional changes for players and some progress in defending has occurred too.

I agree kane is a transformational player for us. I just think Matip is similar

Matip is a good step forwards, but then he is partially cancelled out by losing Sakho in defense.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Matip is a good step forwards, but then he is partially cancelled out by losing Sakho in defense.

No really. Sahko thought he was it but wasn't all that

 

[wishiwasinliverpool]

The outcomes suggests improvement, but the quality of the squad as a whole hasn't. Without Mane, Coutinho and the likes of Firmino we can't compete which is why we need more quality backup and first team options.

In Paisley's day it was nothing to force players to compete for their places in the team. That doesn't happen today; players are selected because their fee has to be justified, Pogba at Manure being a case in point.

 

[astro]

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[InBiscanWeTrust]

I've just posted something similar on the Spurs board about slow progress being far better than flash success because using Leicester as an example it's no good. Building up steam slowly is better than success one year and failure the next because slow progress means a team usually stays longer at the top.
When I posted my thread I immediately thought of Klopp and Liverpool as a comparison. You ARE doing it right, just be patient, go slowly and the trophies will come.

It's why top 4 for us right now is probably more important than an fa cup win and no CL. It should allow us to buy players who will means we can continually challenge for top 4 and as such other domestic trophies. Of course no gauntantee as the season 3 years ago proved, but one fa cup win and 5th/6th for us this would wouldn't have helped us build a better squad.

Thats not me saying trophies aren't important as some other Manc decided to take, just that long term a couple of CL seasons for us should allow us to get back to challenging on more fronts.

 

[InBiscanWeTrust]

You have to look at what was inherited and the style of play that Klopp wanted to play. Before making any acquisitions we had to sell those that didn't fit. On top of that, we went and blew our chance of CL football with a Moreno horror show in the EL final. I truly believe that set us back more than we care to mention.

Having said all of that, with a positive net spend and a relatively small squad hit by injuries, we outperformed some very big spenders in the league, racking up 16 more points. So yes, we have progressed.

However, if you break this down into attack and defence, it tells a different story. Our defence is shocking. it doesn't matter if it's the system or personnel it is awful in both open play and set pieces. If we don't fix that, forget the title and definitely forget progressing in the CL too far as keeping a clean sheet is critical in that competition.

Attacking wise, we have progressed well...but need more. A 20+goal a season striker should be bought.

So on balance an improvement but let's not get carried away; BIG changes are required to really improve and challenge.

Compare our defence to those around us and it's not been massively worse. Clean sheets, goals conceded it's not really any diferent to Arsenal or city who finished either side and didn't get as much attention.

I think ots just massively inconsistent. See against city it and the team
were defensively outstanding, again against West Brom, West Ham, Boro, all clean sheets and played well giving up barely any chances. It's the individual mistakes which has cost us frpm a defensive point of view and it makes it far more noticeable to say it's poor when someone massively ****s up than when 1/2 players are ever so slightly out of position.

If lovren, Matip, Clyde, Milner each cut out 2/3 individual errors each that they made then we'd have probably conceded 5/6 less goals which could have equated to another 7/8points.

 

[carlthejackal]

It's why top 4 for us right now is probably more important than an fa cup win and no CL. It should allow us to buy players who will means we can continually challenge for top 4 and as such other domestic trophies. Of course no gauntantee as the season 3 years ago proved, but one fa cup win and 5th/6th for us this would wouldn't have helped us build a better squad.

Thats not me saying trophies aren't important as some other Manc decided to take, just that long term a couple of CL seasons for us should allow us to get back to challenging on more fronts.

That would by itself be a huge challenge. One season in the CL is usually followed by being out of Europe having finished sixth or seventh

Let's see how we cope this time. Some have really underestimated how much of an advantage it was not to travel and play midweek matches in the continent. If we recruit and use our resources wisely we could manage it. Klopp will earn his money next season. What I certainly do not want to see is us putting a weakened side like we did against Real. Showing that 1. We prioritise the PL or more likely that 2. We gave ourself no chance against such a big team. TBH it was rather humiliating.

Pretty certain Klopp will not do that.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

We had no European football last season , Tottenham played in Europe and they coped very well also came second in the league.If we address the issue of our week areas during the transfer market we can improve further in 2017/2018.
Jurgen Kloop gave four years to win the league, when he took over, just over two years left.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The most important thing is to play kids in league cup.

We are talking 6 cl group games IF the wums lets us know we won something called a "QUALIFIER"

Thats it. Then we being 3rd seeds will either be in last 16 barely or be in the europa last 32...

So play kids in league cup. If they do well ok but next year we need the rest in january etc.

I would also expect certain idiots like lallana to learn how to stiff their country a bit cos our rivals all do this.

 

[SIR_KENNY_KLOPP_KING]

Compare our defence to those around us and it's not been massively worse. Clean sheets, goals conceded it's not really any diferent to Arsenal or city who finished either side and didn't get as much attention.

I think ots just massively inconsistent. See against city it and the team
were defensively outstanding, again against West Brom, West Ham, Boro, all clean sheets and played well giving up barely any chances. It's the individual mistakes which has cost us frpm a defensive point of view and it makes it far more noticeable to say it's poor when someone massively ****s up than when 1/2 players are ever so slightly out of position.

If lovren, Matip, Clyde, Milner each cut out 2/3 individual errors each that they made then we'd have probably conceded 5/6 less goals which could have equated to another 7/8points.

I don't think they can cut out the errors because they're not good enough....or in The case of Lovren, lack a bit of bottle. We nearly coughed up a couple of goals to Boro before we scored....luckily they couldn't score for toffee all season. Matip and Clyne might make it but I'll be surprised if Lovren and Milner are in our starting back 4 next season.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Compare our defence to those around us and it's not been massively worse. Clean sheets, goals conceded it's not really any diferent to Arsenal or city who finished either side and didn't get as much attention.

I think ots just massively inconsistent. See against city it and the team
were defensively outstanding, again against West Brom, West Ham, Boro, all clean sheets and played well giving up barely any chances. It's the individual mistakes which has cost us frpm a defensive point of view and it makes it far more noticeable to say it's poor when someone massively ****s up than when 1/2 players are ever so slightly out of position.

If lovren, Matip, Clyde, Milner each cut out 2/3 individual errors each that they made then we'd have probably conceded 5/6 less goals which could have equated to another 7/8points.

I agree that whilst the system is aggressive, its individual errors which are costing us.

Milner isn't a left back so him making mistakes is expected. Lovren ALWAYS makes mistakes - he's not going to improve on that which is why we need him out. Clyne had a poor season and Matip struggled in 2017.

I genuinely wouldn't be against signing an entire back line.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

I don't think they can cut out the errors because they're not good enough....or in The case of Lovren, lack a bit of bottle. We nearly coughed up a couple of goals to Boro before we scored....luckily they couldn't score for toffee all season. Matip and Clyne might make it but I'll be surprised if Lovren and Milner are in our starting back 4 next season.

100%! It all boils down to quality and Lovren simply does not have what it takes. That's why he makes errors.

Some fans want to blame the system and say that it's hard for defenders - I'm sorry but the system plays no part when we constantly bottle it from set pieces, or when Lovren gets wrong side of the attacker.

 

[BobbyD]

100%! It all boils down to quality and Lovren simply does not have what it takes. That's why he makes errors.

Some fans want to blame the system and say that it's hard for defenders - I'm sorry but the system plays no part when we constantly bottle it from set pieces, or when Lovren gets wrong side of the attacker.

Of course it's the wrong system for him. Whilst he's probably not the greatest defender, the guy gets exposed time and again and he isn't the Ramos type who can recover. I'm not saying he's good enough for your team but in your aggressive system you need to find the right defender which Lovren is not.

A good system can mask a defenders weaknesses. Teams that play with defensive midfielders and good systems will do this (Southampton are a prime example).

Theres just too much space to play in behind and in front of lovren and he is not good enough to do it.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Nobody should deny that jimmy is right about lovren on set piece and corners. I've lost count of the numbe rof times he's rooted to the ground and guys are heading the ball goalwards

Lovren is what he is. a trier. He was not suited to the crap rogers was trying out which was do stupid things not to kick it away to safety. Klopp suits him more but in the end if you are going to gamble in midfield on fast cloaing down CBs need to be positionally excellent and he is not.

Matip is rarely caught out. very rare to see him on wrong side of an attacker and he always gets his block in. Lovren can be got in behind cos he takes risks.

Lovren would be very happy in a west bro mteam with 4/5 other set piece defenders and two dms. He'd love it.... but so would we all.

 

[HugoEkitikeN01]

Many times no one is marking our 'far post', I do not know if it's because of "Zonal marking". We had conceded too many preventable goals because of this.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Of course it's the wrong system for him. Whilst he's probably not the greatest defender, the guy gets exposed time and again and he isn't the Ramos type who can recover. I'm not saying he's good enough for your team but in your aggressive system you need to find the right defender which Lovren is not.

A good system can mask a defenders weaknesses. Teams that play with defensive midfielders and good systems will do this (Southampton are a prime example).

Theres just too much space to play in behind and in front of lovren and he is not good enough to do it.

I agree about buying defenders to suit your style - but I'm not talking about the style when we struggle so much with crosses and set pieces.

And that's not just on Lovren - he ****s up a lot but so do those around him.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

I agree about buying defenders to suit your style - but I'm not talking about the style when we struggle so much with crosses and set pieces.

And that's not just on Lovren - he ****s up a lot but so do those around him.

you are right that clyne is too small to be effective under the high ball. We need other players to fill in around set piece.

 

[InBiscanWeTrust]

Of course it's the wrong system for him. Whilst he's probably not the greatest defender, the guy gets exposed time and again and he isn't the Ramos type who can recover. I'm not saying he's good enough for your team but in your aggressive system you need to find the right defender which Lovren is not.

A good system can mask a defenders weaknesses. Teams that play with defensive midfielders and good systems will do this (Southampton are a prime example).

Theres just too much space to play in behind and in front of lovren and he is not good enough to do it.

Take Luiz. Pony defender but stick 2 proper defenders next to him to cover him when he goes walkies out of position and he can get away with it.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Take Luiz. Pony defender but stick 2 proper defenders next to him to cover him when he goes walkies out of position and he can get away with it.

good point.

theres still weaknesses to exploit there if teams look hard. A lot of times to me teams in the prem don't seem to look until someone else shows the way then they all copy.

for example the trend now is you must play 343 to play chelsea

LFC however spotted something else. e spotted that good deep crossing can cut them up. azpi is not a Cb, he's a RB and a fine one but if you can draw luiz into chasing someone then play it in back stick from the right then you can get goals there.

You on left side cahill is good in air but pony on the ground.

It requires real analysis to break down a good side like cheslea, not copying others. thats why cheslea have won so many handy cos they can just walk over the copy cats.

LFC on the other hand have a clear weakness that only in last two games klopp found something to go try. If a side sits deep we are pony so every ****e side sits deep. sometimes we score sometimes we don't be we always give teams hope. I really hope klopp keeps the 2 up coutinho at no 8 idea going for these games.