Off Topic Non-Sunderland games

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It must be strange being a Man City supporter this morning ...

... like living in a grand mansion some weird foreign bloke, you've never met, bought for you.

When Celtic won the European Cup, against Inter Milan, they were managed by a Glasgow man called Jock. Not only that they had 15 Jocks in a 15 man squad almost all from Glasgow.

Imagine the pride of seeing a local lad score the winning goal in the European Cup Final ...

... I never knew who owned the club, I doubt many knew or cared.

Things were different then.
 
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Gordon Armstrong said:
He's had massive help that others couldn't dream of, so he hasn't done it himself.
He's obviously good, but he's not the same high managerial standard that Cloughie was :emoticon-0148-yes:
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I'm not dismissing Clough here, so please don't take it that way, I'm just interested in being educated.

I understand his achievements from 1975-1980 and his Derby County achievements too (though he broke the transfer record at both clubs so it's not as if they were poor).

But what about his career at Brighton and Leeds, plus from 1980-1993? What did he achieve that makes him the greatest? Or is it 3 or 4 key trophies that elevate him in your opinion?
 
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Smug in Boots said:
It must be strange being a Man City supporter this morning ...

... like living in a grand mansion some weird foreign bloke, you've never met, bought for you.

When Celtic won the European Cup, against Inter Milan, they were managed by a Glasgow man called Jock. Not only that they had 15 Jocks in a 15 man squad almost all from Glasgow.

Imagine the pride of seeing a local lad score the winning goal in the European Cup Final ...

... I never knew who owned the club, I doubt many knew or cared.

Things were different then.
Click to expand...

This is why many football fans want someone else to win the league as the premier is getting a bit boring. It’s becoming a rich version of the Scottish Premier.

The financial side needs a massive shakeup or people will start to lose interest, problem is the EPL are making too much money themselves to care. I’d kind of like to see some of the big teams form this super league just to make domestic more competitive!
 
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Daz said:
This is why many football fans want someone else to win the league as the premier is getting a bit boring. It’s becoming a rich version of the Scottish Premier.

He financial side needs a massive shakeup or people will start to lose interest, problem is the EPL are making too much money themselves to care. I’d kind of like to see some of the big teams form this super league just to make domestic more competitive!
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Totally agree but I can't see a way forward tbh.

The first Man City fan I saw interviewed pre-match was a young Cockney and the second was someone who'd flown in from South Africa. I've no idea if either were born and bred City fans but it demonstrates that, even if locals lost interest, there's millions of brand new 'City fans' queuing up to buy the shirt and kiss the badge.

It's shameful to see the half hearted 'celebrations' when City win another title or cup because they know next year will be the same. This situation, as you say, is what killed Scottish football and it's worse every year.

When only massive money can ever win anything it's tragic ...

... there'll never be another Leicester imo.
 
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Flash Gordon said:
I'm not dismissing Clough here, so please don't take it that way, I'm just interested in being educated.

I understand his achievements from 1975-1980 and his Derby County achievements too (though he broke the transfer record at both clubs so it's not as if they were poor).

But what about his career at Brighton and Leeds, plus from 1980-1993? What did he achieve that makes him the greatest? Or is it 3 or 4 key trophies that elevate him in your opinion?
Click to expand...

Cloughie was a brilliant manager, but he was an abrasive character which meant when it went wrong it went badly wrong.

After leaving Derby, which in his biography he admitted was a huge mistake on his part, he jumped to two unsuitable clubs. Brighton were a struggling third division side which needed a lot of work to do to turn round. It's likely that given another season or so he could have turned them round, but the Leeds job came up and he went to that. Leeds was never going to work. It was Revie's club, the players were Revie's players, the fans didn't want him, there was to much bad feeling between them and him for it ever to have worked. The only way would have been to have got rid of all them and started from scratch.

Although he didn't win the league again, during the 80s his Forest side were still one of the leading club sides in the country, consistently in the top ten, finished third a few times, won two league cups, runners up a couple of times in the League and FA cups, generally had a good cup record getting to quarter finals/semi finals including the UEFA cup semi final in 1984 when they were cheated out of getting to the final by Anderlecht. He might not have been as successful as his earlier days, but still pretty successful and probably a better record than the majority of his peers at the time. When you compare other managers at the time, his stands up pretty well, especially considering how good the Liverpool and Everton teams were then. His mid to late 1980s record is probably better than Alex Ferguson's, and overall better than Ron Atkinson, Terry Venables, Graham Taylor etc. To me his problem was that he had too much power at Forest, it was his club, he built pretty much everything it became. But when his powers began to fade, probably because of the alcohol issues he had, there was no one there to take the pressure off. It's telling to me that now 30 years after leaving that other than for a couple of years in the mud 90s under Frank Clark, Forest have been nowhere near what they achieved in the 80s. Even though Derby were fairly successful after he left, it wasn't long until they dropped right back into the pack.and slipped well out of contention. I think that shows what a great manager he was. However, I think his abrasiveness stopped him getting jobs at the likes of Man U, Spurs etc where he could have won more. He'd have flashed with chairmen and board members too often, just like how it ended at Derby and Leeds.

To me, he is one of the greats and it's a shame how his management career ended due to health issues affecting him.
 
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clockstander said:
Amazing what you can buy with a hundred million quid mind, sorry to be so tetchy but I wanted Inter to win, its the first time I have watched City this season and pleased that its the last, and for all he tin pots he has "won" hes still a tit, thats just my opinion.
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Well said mate,
Best manager ever<doh>
Clough got promoted from the second tier bought and begged misfits from other clubs played them out of position and won league titles European cups and league cups as if they we’re going out of fashion and people reckon Pep is the best manager, the more I read it the more it makes me laugh <laugh>
 
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SAFCDRUM said:
Scott Carson gets a champions league medal. Let's all take a moment...........
Click to expand...

The lad now has 2 champions league medals…one for Liverpool for whom he played 4 games in the season and one for Man City with 1 appearance since 2019 when he was on loan. Madness

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Smug in Boots said:
Totally agree but I can't see a way forward tbh.

The first Man City fan I saw interviewed pre-match was a young Cockney and the second was someone who'd flown in from South Africa. I've no idea if either were born and bred City fans but it demonstrates that, even if locals lost interest, there's millions of brand new 'City fans' queuing up to buy the shirt and kiss the badge.

It's shameful to see the half hearted 'celebrations' when City win another title or cup because they know next year will be the same. This situation, as you say, is what killed Scottish football and it's worse every year.

When only massive money can ever win anything it's tragic ...

... there'll never be another Leicester imo.
Click to expand...
Just hang on a few years mate<ok>
 
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Just watching the England u18 v Australia u18 game on Youtube, you need to be on an Australian VPN I think for it to work though.

No idea of the lineup but its 2-2 at halftime. Zach Marsh scored both for England.

Bellingham has just come on at half time.

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C Montgomery Burns said:
Cloughie was a brilliant manager, but he was an abrasive character which meant when it went wrong it went badly wrong.

After leaving Derby, which in his biography he admitted was a huge mistake on his part, he jumped to two unsuitable clubs. Brighton were a struggling third division side which needed a lot of work to do to turn round. It's likely that given another season or so he could have turned them round, but the Leeds job came up and he went to that. Leeds was never going to work. It was Revie's club, the players were Revie's players, the fans didn't want him, there was to much bad feeling between them and him for it ever to have worked. The only way would have been to have got rid of all them and started from scratch.

Although he didn't win the league again, during the 80s his Forest side were still one of the leading club sides in the country, consistently in the top ten, finished third a few times, won two league cups, runners up a couple of times in the League and FA cups, generally had a good cup record getting to quarter finals/semi finals including the UEFA cup semi final in 1984 when they were cheated out of getting to the final by Anderlecht. He might not have been as successful as his earlier days, but still pretty successful and probably a better record than the majority of his peers at the time. When you compare other managers at the time, his stands up pretty well, especially considering how good the Liverpool and Everton teams were then. His mid to late 1980s record is probably better than Alex Ferguson's, and overall better than Ron Atkinson, Terry Venables, Graham Taylor etc. To me his problem was that he had too much power at Forest, it was his club, he built pretty much everything it became. But when his powers began to fade, probably because of the alcohol issues he had, there was no one there to take the pressure off. It's telling to me that now 30 years after leaving that other than for a couple of years in the mud 90s under Frank Clark, Forest have been nowhere near what they achieved in the 80s. Even though Derby were fairly successful after he left, it wasn't long until they dropped right back into the pack.and slipped well out of contention. I think that shows what a great manager he was. However, I think his abrasiveness stopped him getting jobs at the likes of Man U, Spurs etc where he could have won more. He'd have flashed with chairmen and board members too often, just like how it ended at Derby and Leeds.

To me, he is one of the greats and it's a shame how his management career ended due to health issues affecting him.
Click to expand...
Agree with all of that. His early days at Hartlepools and Derby showed the mettle of the man. His struggles with Longman and Kirkland ended him at Derby, and an older, wiser Clough would have "managed" his superiors in a more pragmatic way (like he did at Forest) but to repeat (and build on) his success at Derby with Forest was remarkable, He could have retired in 1981 with 2 league titles and 2 European cups and still be considered a great of the game. He was never the same without Taylor and he admitted as much. The last 10 years at Forest (without Peter Taylor) were decent, but never reached the heights. He was a character and for that reason he is also considered one of the greats. I've read pretty much every book written by, or about Cloughie.
 
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C Montgomery Burns said:
Cloughie was a brilliant manager, but he was an abrasive character which meant when it went wrong it went badly wrong.

After leaving Derby, which in his biography he admitted was a huge mistake on his part, he jumped to two unsuitable clubs. Brighton were a struggling third division side which needed a lot of work to do to turn round. It's likely that given another season or so he could have turned them round, but the Leeds job came up and he went to that. Leeds was never going to work. It was Revie's club, the players were Revie's players, the fans didn't want him, there was to much bad feeling between them and him for it ever to have worked. The only way would have been to have got rid of all them and started from scratch.

Although he didn't win the league again, during the 80s his Forest side were still one of the leading club sides in the country, consistently in the top ten, finished third a few times, won two league cups, runners up a couple of times in the League and FA cups, generally had a good cup record getting to quarter finals/semi finals including the UEFA cup semi final in 1984 when they were cheated out of getting to the final by Anderlecht. He might not have been as successful as his earlier days, but still pretty successful and probably a better record than the majority of his peers at the time. When you compare other managers at the time, his stands up pretty well, especially considering how good the Liverpool and Everton teams were then. His mid to late 1980s record is probably better than Alex Ferguson's, and overall better than Ron Atkinson, Terry Venables, Graham Taylor etc. To me his problem was that he had too much power at Forest, it was his club, he built pretty much everything it became. But when his powers began to fade, probably because of the alcohol issues he had, there was no one there to take the pressure off. It's telling to me that now 30 years after leaving that other than for a couple of years in the mud 90s under Frank Clark, Forest have been nowhere near what they achieved in the 80s. Even though Derby were fairly successful after he left, it wasn't long until they dropped right back into the pack.and slipped well out of contention. I think that shows what a great manager he was. However, I think his abrasiveness stopped him getting jobs at the likes of Man U, Spurs etc where he could have won more. He'd have flashed with chairmen and board members too often, just like how it ended at Derby and Leeds.

To me, he is one of the greats and it's a shame how his management career ended due to health issues affecting him.
Click to expand...
Top post marra
 
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TopCat_ said:
Agree with all of that. His early days at Hartlepools and Derby showed the mettle of the man. His struggles with Longman and Kirkland ended him at Derby, and an older, wiser Clough would have "managed" his superiors in a more pragmatic way (like he did at Forest) but to repeat (and build on) his success at Derby with Forest was remarkable, He could have retired in 1981 with 2 league titles and 2 European cups and still be considered a great of the game. He was never the same without Taylor and he admitted as much. The last 10 years at Forest (without Peter Taylor) were decent, but never reached the heights. He was a character and for that reason he is also considered one of the greats. I've read pretty much every book written by, or about Cloughie.
Click to expand...

I agree mate, but I'm going to expand on my previous answer about his time in the 80s and early 90s at Forest, while not as successful as previously is still sign of a great manager.

I think you can make a good case that to still be competitive with Forest in his last 10 years there, still a consistent top 10 team with a decent cup record getting to semis and finals and picking up a few trophies over that period is still a hell of an achievement considering the teams he was up against. We all know about Liverpool then, but people forget how good Howard Kendall's Everton team were between 1984 and 1989. FA cup winners in 1984, runners up in 1985, 86 and 89, Cup winners cup winners in 1985, league titles in 1985 and 1987, runners up 1986, league cup runners up in 1984. Add in Manchester United (FA cup winners in 1983, 1985 and 1990, league cup winners 1992, Cup Winners Cup winners 1991), Spurs (FA cup winners in 1981, 82 and 1991, UEFA cup winners in 1984), Arsenal (league winners in 1989 and 1991, league cup winners 1987 and 1993, FA cup winners 1993) and you can see what he was up against.

All of those had better resources at the time than Forest, and were generally in the top few pretty consistently over that time. You can also look at other teams, like West Ham who had a pretty good team for a couple of years in the mid 80s or Watford around the same time to show how competitive the league was then. But teams like West Ham, Watford, Villa, Southampton and QPR didn't do it as consistently as his Forest team did. That to me is an amazing achievement. He had his team consistently punching above it's weight over a good period of time, competing against teams with far better resources and frequently out performing them, enough that people at the time didn't really appreciate what he was doing so still don't do it even today.

Even though he wasn't the same without Taylor and not as successful it's still a huge achievement in my opinion that gets overlooked at times. And the fact that after he left that Forest went on a slide and never really got back to those heights is a testament to what a great manager he was. Last season was Forests first in the top flight since 1999. Even though they bounced back straight away after being relegated in his last season in 1993 and finished third in their first season back, they were relegated twice (1997 & 1999) in five years. It's quite probable that had he left earlier, say around 1985 that Forest would have come down a lot sooner, maybe before the end of the decade, similar to Derby after he left there.

To me he is genuinely one of the greats.
 
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I believe Pep is a good manager but until he brings a club up from the Championship and wins the same trophies as Clough with has beens and misfits and only a couple of key players that cost a lot of money at the time, then I will believe Pep is a great manager, until then just another manager who’s bought success.
 
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rooch 3 said:
I believe Pep is a good manager but until he brings a club up from the Championship and wins the same trophies as Clough with has beens and misfits and only a couple of key players that cost a lot of money at the time, then I will believe Pep is a great manager, until then just another manager who’s bought success.
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Different eras tho so, so hard to compare. Pep is an unreal coach, he makes players better and is changing how football is played. Cloughie was an unreal manager and what he did is unlikely to ever be matched, and thats dwn to the money pl teams have these days. Cloughie was the perfect manager in that era n pep is the perfect manager in this era.
 
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C Montgomery Burns said:
I agree mate, but I'm going to expand on my previous answer about his time in the 80s and early 90s at Forest, while not as successful as previously is still sign of a great manager.

I think you can make a good case that to still be competitive with Forest in his last 10 years there, still a consistent top 10 team with a decent cup record getting to semis and finals and picking up a few trophies over that period is still a hell of an achievement considering the teams he was up against. We all know about Liverpool then, but people forget how good Howard Kendall's Everton team were between 1984 and 1989. FA cup winners in 1984, runners up in 1985, 86 and 89, Cup winners cup winners in 1985, league titles in 1985 and 1987, runners up 1986, league cup runners up in 1984. Add in Manchester United (FA cup winners in 1983, 1985 and 1990, league cup winners 1992, Cup Winners Cup winners 1991), Spurs (FA cup winners in 1981, 82 and 1991, UEFA cup winners in 1984), Arsenal (league winners in 1989 and 1991, league cup winners 1987 and 1993, FA cup winners 1993) and you can see what he was up against.

All of those had better resources at the time than Forest, and were generally in the top few pretty consistently over that time. You can also look at other teams, like West Ham who had a pretty good team for a couple of years in the mid 80s or Watford around the same time to show how competitive the league was then. But teams like West Ham, Watford, Villa, Southampton and QPR didn't do it as consistently as his Forest team did. That to me is an amazing achievement. He had his team consistently punching above it's weight over a good period of time, competing against teams with far better resources and frequently out performing them, enough that people at the time didn't really appreciate what he was doing so still don't do it even today.

Even though he wasn't the same without Taylor and not as successful it's still a huge achievement in my opinion that gets overlooked at times. And the fact that after he left that Forest went on a slide and never really got back to those heights is a testament to what a great manager he was. Last season was Forests first in the top flight since 1999. Even though they bounced back straight away after being relegated in his last season in 1993 and finished third in their first season back, they were relegated twice (1997 & 1999) in five years. It's quite probable that had he left earlier, say around 1985 that Forest would have come down a lot sooner, maybe before the end of the decade, similar to Derby after he left there.

To me he is genuinely one of the greats.
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Agreed. Good post
 
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rooch 3 said:
I believe Pep is a good manager but until he brings a club up from the Championship and wins the same trophies as Clough with has beens and misfits and only a couple of key players that cost a lot of money at the time, then I will believe Pep is a great manager, until then just another manager who’s bought success.
Click to expand...
Agree to a point. You'd have to think that any decent manager would win things with Barca, Bayern and City, but he's changed a lot of how football is played - other teams are copying his tactics and that is a sign of a truly great manager.

Would love to see what he could do at a club like Wycombe or MK Dons.
 
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