Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

I was called a racist by somebody on this very site a few years ago, when I'd neither said nor held racist views. Many people questioning uncontrolled immigration and the way that multiculturalism had done nothing to encourage immigrants to better integrate into British society have also been labelled as racists by some quarters. I fear that racism, rather like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I can quite understand the elderly person that has lived all their life in a small rural community feeling uncomfortable and afraid having to disrobe in hospital to be examined by a doctor of Asian descent, for example, whereas some may well have little sympathy for this attitude because they can only see racism in the situation, when perhaps it's only an understandable form of ignorance born of the narrow parameters of the subject's existence?

So I think you're wrong, Stroller - you can't speak your mind or question certain things today without somebody sticking a label on you.

I struggle a bit with the n-word when you'd be hard pressed to find an Eddie Murphy or Chris Tucker flick without them using the word themselves. You might argue that they've taken the word back as a way of defusing its power, but why use it at all?

Only slightly related, but I saw a couple of pictures a while back of the same woman. In one she was dressed in her local hunt finery. In the other she was dressed in the vestments of her career - a nurse. The article suggested that somebody seeing only the first picture would form a whole raft of opinions based on their own prejudices against fox-hunting, e.g. that she's a heartless, toffee-nosed bitch who deserves to be herself ripped apart by hounds etc. That same person seeing only the second picture might equally have formed an opinion of an angel of mercy, underpaid, overworked and under appreciated by a heartless government. Perhaps both perceptions are true, but I reckon many, when presented with both shots side by side, would find themselves drifting towards that of the toffee-nosed bitch because of their own bias.

What perception would you get from a picture of a black bloke dressed as a high court judge?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

What perception would you get from a picture of a black bloke dressed as a high court judge?

That he was presumably a high court judge and that he was black. What about you?

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

I was called a racist by somebody on this very site a few years ago, when I'd neither said nor held racist views. Many people questioning uncontrolled immigration and the way that multiculturalism had done nothing to encourage immigrants to better integrate into British society have also been labelled as racists by some quarters. I fear that racism, rather like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I can quite understand the elderly person that has lived all their life in a small rural community feeling uncomfortable and afraid having to disrobe in hospital to be examined by a doctor of Asian descent, for example, whereas some may well have little sympathy for this attitude because they can only see racism in the situation, when perhaps it's only an understandable form of ignorance born of the narrow parameters of the subject's existence?

So I think you're wrong, Stroller - you can't speak your mind or question certain things today without somebody sticking a label on you.

I struggle a bit with the n-word when you'd be hard pressed to find an Eddie Murphy or Chris Tucker flick without them using the word themselves. You might argue that they've taken the word back as a way of defusing its power, but why use it at all?

Only slightly related, but I saw a couple of pictures a while back of the same woman. In one she was dressed in her local hunt finery. In the other she was dressed in the vestments of her career - a nurse. The article suggested that somebody seeing only the first picture would form a whole raft of opinions based on their own prejudices against fox-hunting, e.g. that she's a heartless, toffee-nosed bitch who deserves to be herself ripped apart by hounds etc. That same person seeing only the second picture might equally have formed an opinion of an angel of mercy, underpaid, overworked and under appreciated by a heartless government. Perhaps both perceptions are true, but I reckon many, when presented with both shots side by side, would find themselves drifting towards that of the toffee-nosed bitch because of their own bias.

Great post, Uber. Objecting to uncontrolled immigration is one area where the pc extreme (no one on this board) can fling allegations of racism about which are neither true nor helpful. They would curb freedom of speech to satisfy their own ends.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Real wages not expected to reach 2008 levels for at least another five years. Those on low incomes hit worst, as always.

EU Parliament votes to stop discussions with Turkey re joining. Not binding but another Brextard lie exposed, Turkey is not going to join the EU.

Remember the attempted coup and Erdogan's subsequent authoritarian crackdown (which is what the EU is currently complaining about) happened after not before the Brexit vote

 

[QPR999]

Oh no. It looks like another potential horrible incident in France.

You must log in or register to see media

 

[Stroller]

I was called a racist by somebody on this very site a few years ago, when I'd neither said nor held racist views. Many people questioning uncontrolled immigration and the way that multiculturalism had done nothing to encourage immigrants to better integrate into British society have also been labelled as racists by some quarters. I fear that racism, rather like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I can quite understand the elderly person that has lived all their life in a small rural community feeling uncomfortable and afraid having to disrobe in hospital to be examined by a doctor of Asian descent, for example, whereas some may well have little sympathy for this attitude because they can only see racism in the situation, when perhaps it's only an understandable form of ignorance born of the narrow parameters of the subject's existence?

So I think you're wrong, Stroller - you can't speak your mind or question certain things today without somebody sticking a label on you.

I struggle a bit with the n-word when you'd be hard pressed to find an Eddie Murphy or Chris Tucker flick without them using the word themselves. You might argue that they've taken the word back as a way of defusing its power, but why use it at all?

Only slightly related, but I saw a couple of pictures a while back of the same woman. In one she was dressed in her local hunt finery. In the other she was dressed in the vestments of her career - a nurse. The article suggested that somebody seeing only the first picture would form a whole raft of opinions based on their own prejudices against fox-hunting, e.g. that she's a heartless, toffee-nosed bitch who deserves to be herself ripped apart by hounds etc. That same person seeing only the second picture might equally have formed an opinion of an angel of mercy, underpaid, overworked and under appreciated by a heartless government. Perhaps both perceptions are true, but I reckon many, when presented with both shots side by side, would find themselves drifting towards that of the toffee-nosed bitch because of their own bias.

Huh? I can empathise with the awkwardness of being asked to show one's bits in front of a stranger, but why the **** should anybody consider the colour of the doctor's skin in those circumstances?

My point is that so-called 'political correctness' is actually shorthand for social enlightenment, and that it should be understood as a major step forward in our society.

 

[TootingExcess]

Why is it that millionaire rappers can use the N-word and no one bats an eye lid, yet when I use it at my son's under-7 football match on a Sunday morning - I'm a racist. It's one rule for one, political correctness gone mad!

©Viz Letterbox.

 

[Stroller]

Great post, Uber. Objecting to uncontrolled immigration is one area where the pc extreme (no one on this board) can fling allegations of racism about which are neither true nor helpful. They would curb freedom of speech to satisfy their own ends.

Don't exempt me from the 'PC extreme' Goldie. I would wear it as a badge of honour. Racists are racists after all.

 

[ELLERS]

According to May "Brexit means Brexit". (again she said it). I now don't think we will need to leave the EU...... I think it will fall apart without us leaving.

5th December Italy will be another brick being pulled from the wall.

On a serious note
Very quietly mentioned today was a fall in car sales and house building (which I thought was crucial to our economy)?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Huh? I can empathise with the awkwardness of being asked to show one's bits in front of a stranger, but why the **** should anybody consider the colour of the doctor's skin in those circumstances?

My point is that so-called 'political correctness' is actually shorthand for social enlightenment, and that it should be understood as a major step forward in our society.

There are elderly in this country that are reticent to show their bits to anybody, Strolls, I grant you. But the **** that they might also consider the colour of the doctor's skin can also be a factor. It was for my late great-aunt, who was afraid having never really come into contact with a black person before, only to then be required to be intimately examined by one in a situation that was already distressful for her. Both you and I would clearly have no concern in a similar situation, both not being of that generation or background, but we perhaps differ in that I have sympathy for her attitude whereas you may have difficulty. It wasn't racism in my opinion, it was a fear born of ignorance. A socially enlightened person such as your good self might find all that odd, given that a doctor is a doctor etc., but an elderly, confused and distressed lady of a certain ilk would in my opinion be forgiven for reacting in this way. Maybe somebody else just sees a racist and would rejoice in the fact that she has long since departed. That's why the ****.

Political correct = social enlightenment? Mostly true. Some of it is complete ****.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Who won the game
The people of colour
Or
The people of no colour

 

[Stroller]

There are elderly in this country that are reticent to show their bits to anybody, Strolls, I grant you. But the **** that they might also consider the colour of the doctor's skin can also be a factor. It was for my late great-aunt, who was afraid having never really come into contact with a black person before, only to then be required to be intimately examined by one in a situation that was already distressful for her. Both you and I would clearly have no concern in a similar situation, both not being of that generation or background, but we perhaps differ in that I have sympathy for her attitude whereas you may have difficulty. It wasn't racism in my opinion, it was a fear born of ignorance. A socially enlightened person such as your good self might find all that odd, given that a doctor is a doctor etc., but an elderly, confused and distressed lady of a certain ilk would in my opinion be forgiven for reacting in this way. Maybe somebody else just sees a racist and would rejoice in the fact that she has long since departed. That's why the ****.

Political correct = social enlightenment? Mostly true. Some of it is complete ****.

I can sympathise with your great-aunt in that situation, Uber, but I can't empathise with her. It was indeed a fear born of ignorance, but it was also racism in my opinion. Aren't they the same thing?

 

[sb_73]

That he was presumably a high court judge and that he was black. What about you?

I would think - wow, that's a rare sight the only non white male high court judge. That's not very likely, he's probably in fancy dress.

There are examples of extreme PC stuff which verge on the totalitarian. But for me the positive effects far outweigh the negative, millions of people have been more free of the gratuitous and thoughtless offence that were commonplace in our youth. Sure, some more elderly people can't break out of the old ways, my own parents included to an extent, largely through ignorance, but that's not an excuse for anyone else to moan on about them 'not being allowed' to use offensive language. I get a bit tired with 'PC' being used as a catch all insult by certain bits of the media. All part of the 'I am a victim too/ who can I blame' culture, which cuts across the political spectrum and has got much more pronounced with the rise of identity politics since the death of old style economic politics with the fall of the Berlin Wall.

If some anti-immigration people are offended by others implying that they are racist, they should be grateful that PC thinking gives them a route to protest about labelling. And even if someone is a racist, calling them one is just insulting an opinion, which is fair game in my view, unlike insulting someone for their skin colour or gender, which they can't change. I've lost count (to be honest I didn't start) of the number of times 'leftie' 'liberal elite' etc have been used as terms of derision and scorn on this thread and I use 'Tory' and increasingly 'patriot' in the same way. All fair enough I think.

But then, as a 'citizen of nowhere' my opinion is irrelevant anyway, it seems. Who can I blame for that?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I would think - wow, that's a rare sight the only non white male high court judge. That's not very likely, he's probably in fancy dress.

There are examples of extreme PC stuff which verge on the totalitarian. But for me the positive effects far outweigh the negative, millions of people have been more free of the gratuitous and thoughtless offence that were commonplace in our youth. Sure, some more elderly people can't break out of the old ways, my own parents included to an extent, largely through ignorance, but that's not an excuse for anyone else to moan on about them 'not being allowed' to use offensive language. I get a bit tired with 'PC' being used as a catch all insult by certain bits of the media. All part of the 'I am a victim too/ who can I blame' culture, which cuts across the political spectrum and has got much more pronounced with the rise of identity politics since the death of old style economic politics with the fall of the Berlin Wall.

If some anti-immigration people are offended by others implying that they are racist, they should be grateful that PC thinking gives them a route to protest about labelling. And even if someone is a racist, calling them one is just insulting an opinion, which is fair game in my view, unlike insulting someone for their skin colour or gender, which they can't change. I've lost count (to be honest I didn't start) of the number of times 'leftie' 'liberal elite' etc have been used as terms of derision and scorn on this thread and I use 'Tory' and increasingly 'patriot' in the same way. All fair enough I think.

But then, as a 'citizen of nowhere' my opinion is irrelevant anyway, it seems. Who can I blame for that?

Too tired to read all that, soz. Might later.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I can sympathise with your great-aunt in that situation, Uber, but I can't empathise with her. It was indeed a fear born of ignorance, but it was also racism in my opinion. Aren't they the same thing?

Absolutely they're not. Why look for racism in everything? Were she still alive what sanction would you propose for a 87 year old woman riddled with cancer? Hung, drawn and quartered? Removal of patient care? Quiet derision? A poke in the eye with a sharp stick? Or just the satisfaction that you're so much more enlightened than this dinosaur?

 

[sb_73]

Absolutely they're not. Why look for racism in everything? Were she still alive what sanction would you propose for a 87 year old woman riddled with cancer? Hung, drawn and quartered? Removal of patient care? Quiet derision? A poke in the eye with a sharp stick? Or just the satisfaction that you're so much more enlightened than this dinosaur?

Pity would probably be the most apt response. Both for the illness and the fact that she has lived trapped by ignorance into a fear of difference. And I am sure that my kids and (God forbid) grandkids will pity me for some archaic attitudes that I have and am completely unaware of.

Nice rhetoric by the way, bringing cancer into it. Did this really happen or are you elaborating a hypothetical example?

 

[Stroller]

Absolutely they're not. Why look for racism in everything? Were she still alive what sanction would you propose for a 87 year old woman riddled with cancer? Hung, drawn and quartered? Removal of patient care? Quiet derision? A poke in the eye with a sharp stick? Or just the satisfaction that you're so much more enlightened than this dinosaur?

I wouldn't advocate any sanction, Uber, I would merely attempt to point out the absurdity of her attitude towards someone who happened to have a different skin colour. Your great-aunt was from a generation where casual racism such as this was commonplace. It is now generally deemed to be unacceptable, which I would suggest is a good thing. What worries me, though, is that there seems to be a growing backlash from people who object to being told that racism, sexism and homophobia are to be frowned upon. The election of a US president who openly displays all of these attitudes is a testament to this, as is the support for the racist Farage. Not everyone who voted for Trump or Leave in the EU referendum is a racist of course, but racism won the day on both occasions.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Don't exempt me from the 'PC extreme' Goldie. I would wear it as a badge of honour. Racists are racists after all.

The reason I excluded you and all on this board, Strolls, is that my definition of PC Extreme includes those that scream "racism" when there is none in evidence but it hands them an advantage, political or otherwise. Like those that cried Burn her... during the Salem Witch trials, or those that cried Reds... during the McCarthy era.

It is not racist to have doubts over the scale of immigration, the lack of control and stagnant rate of integration in some parts of the country. If my memory serves me well, you yourself had self-doubt over your adverse feelings towards Islam, and posted a thread asking whether we thought you were racist. We didn't.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Pity would probably be the most apt response. Both for the illness and the fact that she has lived trapped by ignorance into a fear of difference. And I am sure that my kids and (God forbid) grandkids will pity me for some archaic attitudes that I have and am completely unaware of.

Nice rhetoric by the way, bringing cancer into it. Did this really happen or are you elaborating a hypothetical example?

No rhetoric, Stanners, all fact. She was a very pleasant and kindly old Dutch when she wasn't wearing her jackboots and invading Poland.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

I wouldn't advocate any sanction, Uber, I would merely attempt to point out the absurdity of her attitude towards someone who happened to have a different skin colour. Your great-aunt was from a generation where casual racism such as this was commonplace. It is now generally deemed to be unacceptable, which I would suggest is a good thing. What worries me, though, is that there seems to be a growing backlash from people who object to being told that racism, sexism and homophobia are to be frowned upon. The election of a US president who openly displays all of these attitudes is a testament to this, as is the support for the racist Farage. Not everyone who voted for Trump or Leave in the EU referendum is a racist of course, but racism won the day on both occasions.

Are they objecting to racism, sexism and homophobia being frowned upon, or are they objecting to being told that every attitude or opinion that they hold that differs from (say, and for arguments sake) yours falls into one of these three brackets? As I said earlier, it feels at times as though racism, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. "You are racist because I say you are". The first definition I found of racism online was:

"Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Of course, the definition is doubtless more complex than that. And then you're into defining prejudice, discrimination and antagonism. Possibly then you're into an argument over whether there has to be a victim or not, and whether said victim has in some way suffered as a consequence of another's actions. It can be a bottomless pit, but one can see how quickly the mob mobilises at the mere sniff of racism etc. All else falls by the wayside.

We all walk on eggshells these days and I content myself with the certainty that a few of the enlightened will themselves be hoisted by their own petards.

You probably think I'm a racist now, because I hold a different perspective, which would be disappointing though perhaps not a surprise.