Goodbye Jose and......

[Le Tissier's Laces]

Forster
Shaw
Alderweireld
Van Dijk
Clyne
Wanyama
Schneiderlin
Mané
Lallana
Tadic
Long

Subs:
McCarthy
Chambers
Fonte
Hojbjerg
Pelle

Well that's a top four squad, and that's without the Arsenal contingent of old.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

We'll probably not.... People have previously said to look at our team if they'd all stayed... That would mean no Pelle, no Mane, no Tadic, nonToby, no VVD, etc... As the team wouldn't have evolved through selling of the players they came into replace.

I know it's unrealistic but I'm a football supporter

 

[fatletiss]

Yes I know it is, but does it have to be that drastic every season. Two steps forward one step back might work, what about if it turns to one step forward two steps back?

I guess it depends on what are goals are, is it EPL survival, top ten or top 4, or champions but over what time period.

It might well be one step forward two steps back one year, because so far it's been progress every time and that's hard to continue. The sky will fall in for some people when that happens as they can't see beyond one defeat some of them, let alone a season without progression.

I just can't understand the reaction of some fans and what they really expect. I am genuinely sorry if I offend people, but j just don't get all the criticism aimed at the club and what they are expected to do.

Half the players on Laces list above, wouldn't be here at all if we hadn't sold someone in the first place.

Maybe j just able to deal with these situations better than others, I don't know.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Yes I know it is, but does it have to be that drastic every season. Two steps forward one step back might work, what about if it turns to one step forward two steps back?

I guess it depends on what are goals are, is it EPL survival, top ten or top 4, or champions but over what time period.

Until the current model has been proven not to work, I prefer to accept the overwhelming evidence that for our club, over the last few seasons, it works very well. Of course we are affected emotionally when we see our favourite players sold, but those feelings are, so far, invariably offset by the success their replacements bring. The fact is, we can't compete with the richer clubs either in transfer fees or wages, so we have to use slow, steady, sustainable growth as our model, and it works.

 

[Beef]

It might well be one step forward two steps back one year, because so far it's been progress every time and that's hard to continue. The sky will fall in for some people when that happens as they can't see beyond one defeat some of them, let alone a season without progression.

I just can't understand the reaction of some fans and what they really expect. I am genuinely sorry if I offend people, but j just don't get all the criticism aimed at the club and what they are expected to do.

Half the players on Laces list above, wouldn't be here at all if we hadn't sold someone in the first place.

Maybe j just able to deal with these situations better than others, I don't know.

I never get attached to players. So it's pretty easy for me to see them leave. As long as I see the club trying to improve and replacing players I am happy.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I know this is an old argument, but this is why I was struggling with my 'positive' match thread this week. Jose Fonte is a guy who kicks a bag of wind around a park for fun. Yep we all care how many times that bag of wind goes between two posts and a crossbar, but really? How important in life is it? He earns more than most of us do on this forum in a week than we do in a year. Probably double and some.

I just googled a surgeon's salary - shocking...Fonte will earn in a month a top surgeon salary..someone who saves lives, not entertains. Now I know the old argument and I'm probably too far to the right in my political view to go into this, but WTF is going on in the world that most footballers earn more than doctors, nurses, teachers etc and even 'captains' of industry? If JF is on now £85/ week, EVERY one of us on here would probably take a month's salary and we would live the life of Riley (who is Riley? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_of_Riley). What I am trying to say is let's get a bit of perspective on this. ANY footballer who wants to leave for money should look in the mirror and realise what a greedy twat they are being. They have the career that we can only dream of, but greed takes over. It is not like the old days where they need a last pay check to keep their family secure. £4.5 million/year for the next couple of years is enough to feed your family for the rest of your life if you are sensible.

I've got bored of this 'I wish him well' or 'he's a twat'. The bottom line is that in the real world he is a twat in my view; why leave a club you are adored that gave you your break and lifestyle etc? Maybe I'm not ruthless enough and that is why I didn't retire at 35...

Rant over, I expect to be slated, but am past caring with this football lark now.

 

[saintlyhero]

Les Reed said himself that we're a showcase club.
That's the business model. Has it worked?

Stoke, West Brom, Sunderland, Newcastle, A snap shot of clubs with similar or even bigger budgets who were already established in the premier league on our return.

We have outperformed these clubs over the last few seasons by a country mile.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I know this is an old argument, but this is why I was struggling with my 'positive' match thread this week. Jose Fonte is a guy who kicks a bag of wind around a park for fun. Yep we all care how many times that bag of wind goes between two posts and a crossbar, but really? How important in life is it? He earns more than most of us do on this forum in a week than we do in a year. Probably double and some.

I just googled a surgeon's salary - shocking...Fonte will earn in a month a top surgeon salary..someone who saves lives, not entertains. Now I know the old argument and I'm probably too far to the right in my political view to go into this, but WTF is going on in the world that most footballers earn more than doctors, nurses, teachers etc and even 'captains' of industry? If JF is on now £85/ week, EVERY one of us on here would probably take a month's salary and we would live the life of Riley (who is Riley? I'll post that later on a different thread). What I am trying to say is let's get a bit of perspective on this. ANY footballer who wants to leave for money should look in the mirror and realise what a greedy twat they are being. They have the career that we can only dream of, but greed takes over. It is not like the old days where they need a last pay check to keep their family secure. £4.5 million/year for the next couple of years is enough to feed your family for the rest of your life if you are sensible.

I've got bored of this 'I wish him well' or 'he's a twat'. The bottom line is that in the real world he is a twat in my view; why leave a club you are adored that gave you your break and lifestyle etc? Maybe I'm not ruthless enough and that is why I didn't retire at 35...

Rant over, I expect to be slated, but am past caring with this football lark now.

"I've got bored of this he's a twat.....but he's a twat"

Hahaha, love it! (And yes, I do agree in principle, but market forces and greed are powerful, if ridiculous, motivators.)

 

[fatletiss]

Forster
Shaw
Alderweireld
Van Dijk
Clyne
Wanyama
Schneiderlin
Mané
Lallana
Tadic
Long

Subs:
McCarthy
Chambers
Fonte
Hojbjerg
Pelle

Well that's a top four squad, and that's without the Arsenal contingent of old.

Here is another question for those people digging the Board. Look at this list posted by Laces. Those players who have gone were "sold" the Southampton story and ambition and bought into it. They all talked positively about the clubs ambitions. Why did the first trench go? Was it:

1. because the Board told them we were going to sell five key players?

2. because Roy Hodgson told them to play top 4/CL football to stay in England squad?

3. Because they wanted more money and had been tapped up?

4. Because they wanted to win something? (This answer is a trick answer because remember I told you they had already bought into ambition here)


My reason for pairing this is purely trying to show that the Board have been screwed over in my opinion (not indisputable by the way ) . So the first lot go and the Board replace them with more who buy into our ambition and then they want to leave. I have never heard anything from the club abut a change in ambition. Never. I've also been lucky enough to witness a 7 year rise that suggests their ambitions are realistic and plans are working. This despite some people jumping ship. I can't recall any players leaving saying that the clubs ambitions had changed (only Brenda suggested that)

Here is a club that has shown incredible progress every year for seven years and this despite major disruptions brought on by players demanding to leave, a club clearly showing success in their ambitions and yet I am to believe that these players are leaving to fulfill their ambitions. I'm to believe that our Board are to blame because we're not ambitious enough.

For all the talk of lacking ambition, stepping stone cultures, etc, etc, the facts I see from the last 7 years seem to suggest something different.

If anything is indisputable, it is history. History is telling me that the club keep managing to maintain their ambition despite the players not because of the players.

Greedy bastards to me I'm afraid. If it was really ambition then bloody hell, these guys can't read. No other club I can think of has our upward 7 year curve.

 

[NISaint]

I never get attached to players. So it's pretty easy for me to see them leave. As long as I see the club trying to improve and replacing players I am happy.

Ostlund though...that beard

 

[SaintinNZ]

Nice that you drag it down to personal criticism

If you really think that by telling you your post was disputable (it is your opinion not based on any actual inside knowledge of the club) is talking down to you, then I will have to walk on eggshells with you in future. You posted your opinion as fact by claiming it indisputable. A little bit unrealistic really unless you are Les Reed's brother.

Yeah you're right and you chose to engage with that rather than the point I was making. Thats fine, I'm happy to leave it there however I didnt drag it to personal criticism, you did, accusing me of being a glass half full person simply for taking issue with what I see to be the single biggest issue facing the club. That's a personal criticism and thats a fact : )

I don't expect you to walk on eggshells, I've got a thick enough skin, growing up with Les was actually really tough.

 

[fatletiss]

"I've got bored of this he's a twat.....but he's a twat"

Hahaha, love it! (And yes, I do agree in principle, but market forces and greed are powerful, if ridiculous, motivators.)

You are spot on LTL, yet some people seem to think the issue is with the club, rather than these market forces. I find that sad.

 

[SaintinNZ]

If there is nothing half full about your attitude, please explain how signing our current better players on extended contracts is seen as a losing hand. I am confused by this.

I did explain it. At the moment I believe we are perceived as a selling club by our rivals, by football in general and by the squad. I believe thats not a positive (but I accept that I have yet to be proven right and I may absolutely be wrong about it.) If we are looking to change that, contracts in the past have made zero difference to player sales so I don't see how longer contracts will make a difference in the future. Thats all I meant by doubling down.

 

[fatletiss]

Yeah you're right and you chose to engage with that rather than the point I was making. Thats fine, I'm happy to leave it there however I didnt drag it to personal criticism, you did, accusing me of being a glass half full person simply for taking issue with what I see to be the single biggest issue facing the club. That's a personal criticism and thats a fact : )

I don't expect you to walk on eggshells, I've got a thick enough skin, growing up with Les was actually really tough.

If you have a minute NZ, please read my long post above and tell me if it makes any sense. I just don't see this as the Board's fault.

 

[Pelletron]

I wish Osvaldo had clocked him even harder.

I'll say one thing about Osvaldo - time has proven him to be the most honest player to have worn a Saints shirt in years.

 

[fatletiss]

I did explain it. At the moment I believe we are perceived as a selling club by our rivals, by football in general and by the squad. I believe thats not a positive (but I accept that I have yet to be proven right and I may absolutely be wrong about it.) If we are looking to change that, contracts in the past have made zero difference to player sales so I don't see how longer contracts will make a difference in the future. Thats all I meant by doubling down.

Fair enough, but that also means the Board can't do any thing. They are stuffed. They say no ta an offer and the player doesn't sign a new deal, he walks for nothing and eventually we go bust (extreme I know).

The key part for me is why do player leave and what can the club really do to keep them?

 

[Beef]

Fair enough, but that also means the Board can't do any thing. They are stuffed. They say no ta an offer and the player doesn't sign a new deal, he walks for nothing and eventually we go bust (extreme I know).

The key part for me is why do player leave and what can the club really do to keep them?

We also can't just stick the player in the reserves if they strop. The PFA would step in and his contract ripped up.

Also every club is a selling club apart from probably Barca and Real.

 

[Pelletron]

I think players move on for a number of reasons - more game time, more money, more glory and silverware. I think we suffer because players know that they can get more money elsewhere and until we match their ambition on the transfer market we will always be a club that sells because they can't see us winning anything

This is the truth. Been said a million times before, but it's pretty unlikely that a player will win anything with us, and so when offered even the hint of a higher salary with one of many teams, it is no surprise they leave. Seeing that ARS-LIV game the other day, it forces home the fact that we would be a real force had we so desired - by hanging on to players who were mostly within contract for a few seasons longer, and stretching out the departures over a longer period. Fact is, we don't have that desire - I am aware that it is a conscious decision to build toward something long term, which will hopefully pay dividends. So we as fans can't really complain too much when the club - and it is the club we are supporting - are trying to build something else via fairly large-scale sales policy. Money is of course the huge bonus and primary driver, but in most cases it is aligned in players' minds to a significantly bigger probability of winning something. They have kids, families etc. Of course, they're still massive ****s, but at least there's some logic...

 

[SaintinNZ]

If you have a minute NZ, please read my long post above and tell me if it makes any sense. I just don't see this as the Board's fault.

Yeah we are in agreement that its not the boards fault but we differ in whether they should be doing more about it. I'm at a loss to explain why our captain and staunchest advocate would want to give it all up for a few final games at a club where he will be meaningless.

What should they be doing? Stop selling for a start. I know its glib sounding but I believe the club have to.

I believe players are leaving because we are becoming established as a feeder club - I have NO idea why, I mean christ Mane jumped ship for a team that finished below us, filled with players who have gone down hill since they left us (through gritted teeth I expect them to do very well this season).

 

[Ronnie Hotdog (MLsfc)]

We'll probably not.... People have previously said to look at our team if they'd all stayed... That would mean no Pelle, no Mane, no Tadic, nonToby, no VVD, etc... As the team wouldn't have evolved through selling of the players they came into replace.

A valid point that we wouldn't bring in as many players if we didn't sell as many. But if we kept our best players and continued to add quality to the team by using the millions from TV money rather than funds from player sales, then undoubtedly we may well be in a better position. But we need to accept that fact that our board have chosen a more sustainable model, and we can't really complain at this point because we have improved every year!